Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-19-2018, 03:39 PM   #1
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,434
Default Curing The Black Ooze

Since the 1st run of the rebuilt engine in my 190A, a "Black Ooze" has been weeping out the cylinder head gasket. My fear is that the head gasket will fail while away on a cruise, so I am in the process of replacing it.

The engine is a Model "B" with the 2 extra water holes in the block plugged. The weeping gasket is a FEL-PRO 7013 R1. The cylinder head is a brand new Spender's 5:5:1 Model "A" head. Compression readings were normal. The 7013 R1 was coated with copper gasket sealer when I installed it. Re-torquing of the head bolts a few times did not stop the Ooze. Barr's Stop Leak did not stop the Ooze. In my opinion, the 7013 R1 Gasket is the culprit.
The new gasket is a 7013 R3. What is the difference between the R1 and the R3? I need some confidence that the R3 will solve the Black Ooze problem.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Resized 190A Cyl Head Ooze.jpg (86.2 KB, 317 views)
__________________
Bob Bidonde
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 05:12 PM   #2
jb-ob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Bob,


Some have found it necessary to plane even new heads.


I'd double check the flatness of that block deck as well.


That appears to be more than just a weeping gasket failure.


JB
jb-ob is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-19-2018, 05:19 PM   #3
1931 flamingo
Senior Member
 
1931 flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 9,389
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

There's another "thread" going on about h/gaskets. The R-3 works on bigger bore engines and has diff material than the R-1.


"The cylinder head is a brand new Spender's 5:5:1 Model "A" head. Compression readings were normal." Who makes this head and available from who??
Paul in CT
1931 flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 06:28 PM   #4
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,472
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Model As are notoriuos for weeping under the head but I've never seen one that bad! Would some high temp gasket sealer help? I use it and like I said, I have never seen any as bad as that. Just wondering.
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 06:52 PM   #5
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,947
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

How often have you cleaned that black off? That definitely shouldn't be the water in your block that color.
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 07:06 PM   #6
Gary WA
Senior Member
 
Gary WA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Clinton,WA/Whidbey Island
Posts: 4,088
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Model A Ford Garage ~ Brumfield Cylinder Head Gasket Instructionss
__________________
www.whidbeymodelaclub.com
Gary WA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 07:10 PM   #7
Gary WA
Senior Member
 
Gary WA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Clinton,WA/Whidbey Island
Posts: 4,088
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Good info on proper head gasket torque-Proper steps! also info on the types pf gaskets for the B engine- Never had a gasket fail with the technique by Larry B. Copper only-Not the new ones with silicone they fail! I know! See post #6 for link.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg walter dripping nose.jpg (19.0 KB, 6 views)
__________________
www.whidbeymodelaclub.com
Gary WA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 07:14 PM   #8
Tom Wesenberg
Senior Member
 
Tom Wesenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 27,582
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Did you lay the gasket on the head and on the block to see where the fire rings lay?
Tom Wesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 11:33 PM   #9
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,339
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

That looks like a lot of oil being pumped by the pistons, what color is your exhaust?
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2018, 11:41 PM   #10
duke36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Bob: Looks like you have a '32 oil filler pipe. Is that internally clear? Some like the BEST gasket for the hc heads. We have some black ooze coming from the front crankshaft rope on a recent rebuild with 6.1 head, etc.
duke36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 12:25 AM   #11
Tom Endy
Senior Member
 
Tom Endy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

It looks to me like you are getting crank case oil up into the cylinders. Are you sure the cap on the oil tube is venting the crank case properly.


Tom Endy
Tom Endy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 04:13 AM   #12
Benson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,579
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

... PM sent

Last edited by Benson; 08-23-2018 at 12:34 PM.
Benson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 10:26 AM   #13
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,774
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Is there any oil in the coolant?
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 02:22 PM   #14
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,434
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

The winning diagnoses are by Redmodelt and Tom Endy. The Black Ooze is motor oil. On the basis of the photos below, what is your analysis of what went wrong?
__________________
Bob Bidonde

Last edited by Bob Bidonde; 08-21-2018 at 02:34 PM.
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 02:41 PM   #15
Benson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,579
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

insufficient details ...

Last edited by Benson; 08-22-2018 at 10:43 AM.
Benson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 03:17 PM   #16
john in illinois
Senior Member
 
john in illinois's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,181
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

I have had to surface a new snyders head. They must warp a little sfter macining. New Cast iron brake drums also need to be trued.

I like Best brand gaskets. They have. Copper and a graphtite. Both have an excellent reputation. I use the graphtite. Snyders sell their gaskets. They are fine for an overbore also.

John
john in illinois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 03:24 PM   #17
supereal
Senior Member
 
supereal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,634
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

At our shop we lightly plane all heads before reassembly, even new replacements, as our straight edge usually shows enough warp to cause problems.
supereal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 04:05 PM   #18
Tom Endy
Senior Member
 
Tom Endy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,122
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

The photos show there may be a head flatness problem, but I don't think that was the cause of the oil getting up into the cylinders. I still think you have a crank case venting problem. The oil vent tube or the cap may be partially blocked. Someone could have put a Brillo pad in the cap.


Tom Endy
Tom Endy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 11:58 PM   #19
gustafson
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 128
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

the pix show the top of the cylinders are burned, and the ooze is more than just oil, it is burned oil.
rings too tight? low water level? low grade oil?


might be a good idea to pop the pan, and pop the pistons and see what they look like
gustafson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 10:10 AM   #20
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,434
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

The head is flat, no warp. The block is flat too. The motor oil is a synthetic blend 10W30.
__________________
Bob Bidonde
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 11:40 AM   #21
denniskliesen
Senior Member
 
denniskliesen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 877
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Looking at the top of the cylinders on #2 and #3, looks like discoloration. My past experience with engines that had black oil coming out, whether it was black on the outside or in the oil pan, was from lack of water and extreme heat. No matter what oil, synthetic or regular will not take a hot spot from lack of water in a cooling system. Just curious, do you have a water temp gauge and what does the oil in the crankcase look like? If you have doubts, take a sample of your oil and have it analyzed. They can tell you a lot of things your oil has gone through from heat and content of metals. Also if you do have a water temp gauge, they will very seldom show what your temperature is unless submerged in water. Also cylinder heads develop small cracks from excessive heat. look at brake drums and rotors that have been through excessive heat and notice all the cracks and hot spots. Never pour cold water in an overheated or hot engine. I've seen people do that and ruined their engine.
denniskliesen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 06:22 PM   #22
gustafson
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 128
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

use of synthetic for vintage break-in guarantees rings will take forever to seat
gustafson is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-23-2018, 03:09 PM   #23
DHZIEMAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Sunrise Beach, Mo
Posts: 439
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob bidonde View Post
since the 1st run of the rebuilt engine in my 190a, a "black ooze" has been weeping out the cylinder head gasket. My fear is that the head gasket will fail while away on a cruise, so i am in the process of replacing it.

The engine is a model "b" with the 2 extra water holes in the block plugged. The weeping gasket is a fel-pro 7013 r1. The cylinder head is a brand new spender's 5:5:1 model "a" head. Compression readings were normal. The 7013 r1 was coated with copper gasket sealer when i installed it. Re-torquing of the head bolts a few times did not stop the ooze. Barr's stop leak did not stop the ooze. In my opinion, the 7013 r1 gasket is the culprit.
The new gasket is a 7013 r3. what is the difference between the r1 and the r3? I need some confidence that the r3 will solve the black ooze problem.
xxx

Last edited by DHZIEMAN; 08-23-2018 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Delete
DHZIEMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2018, 08:55 PM   #24
James Rogers
Senior Member
 
James Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Asheville,NC
Posts: 3,104
Default Re: Curing The Black Ooze

You can keep on wishing the head and block are flat but, in my opinion, something is warped and needs to be machined flat. The areas you show where #2 and #3 are leaking to the outside of the engine is where I find most blocks to be warped. Remember, .003 is enough to cause problems and gasket failures.
James Rogers is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:52 AM.