Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

[Old Henry]

This noise started in the engine spontaneously a couple of weeks ago, barely perceptible. At first it seemed like it was just premature detonation so I tried the usual fixes: Pulled the choke out a bit. It seemed to help a little at first but as time went on I had to choke it almost to death - just barely able to run - to benefit at all. Put larger jets in the carb. Again, at first seemed to help but not any more. Cranked the vacuum brake on the distributor down as far as it would go. Again, only short lived benefit. Same with putting the highest octane gas available in. No help.

It has always had the characteristic of premature detonation - only exists at full vacuum under power over 40 mph, not when accelerating nor decelerating. Now it's heard at fast idle without any load after getting up to stable RPM as heard in the video.

I'm afraid that it is sounding more and more like the sound I had last year for a short time just before a piston came apart and I had to have the engine rebuilt (21,000 miles ago).

What do you think?

Here's the noise: http://youtu.be/1BXBh417e_w

[dean333]

Sounds like a rod knock to me, sorry

[mfagan]

How's the oil pressure?

[Jack E/NJ]

Dunno? I'd pull all the plugs first and see if they can tell you anything. If they all look the same, then pull the heads and take a look at and massage the pistons for bearing or wristpin issues.

Jack E/NJ

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by mfagan

How's the oil pressure?

Oil pressure has always been good. New oil pump with engine rebuild last year.

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Dunno? I'd pull all the plugs first and see if they can tell you anything. If they all look the same, then pull the heads and take a look at and massage the pistons for bearing or wristpin issues.

Jack E/NJ

If I identify a bearing or wrist pin issue can it be fixed without removing the engine?

[ford3]

almost every thing can be fixed with the engine in the car, except a flattened throw on the crank, sounds like a rod knock to me

[DJ513]

I had a very similar noise an it turned out to be a broken piston. I didn't know it was broke till I pulled the piston completely out. Hope you have better luck than I did.

Dan

[Lawrie]

Henry,I feel for you,you and me both do a lot of miles in our old fords,ours is resting at home as the engine couldn't,t be fixed in time for our big trip around Australia,so we are away in our fairlane.
Back to your noise,I too think it's a rod bearing. But to cheer you up,here is a pic we took the other day on our holiday ,a croc eating a kangaroo,I was going to go in for a dip till I saw this.
Lawrie

[oldford2]

Professor,
Pull one plug at a time and see if the knock stops or diminishes at any cylinder. If it is a rod this test would take all the pressure off the offending cylinder. Just a thought
John

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

Henry,I feel for you,you and me both do a lot of miles in our old fords,ours is resting at home as the engine couldn't,t be fixed in time for our big trip around Australia,so we are away in our fairlane.
Back to your noise,I too think it's a rod bearing. But to cheer you up,here is a pic we took the other day on our holiday ,a croc eating a kangaroo,I was going to go in for a dip till I saw this.
Lawrie

I was looking forward to the travelogue of your trip. Sorry you couldn't take it. Fortunately, this engine problem has just come after I have taken every road trip on my bucket list - 20 total over the last 3 years. I was just thinking I'll now have to start repeating them. Then this happened. It may be that I just take a rest from "Old Henry" for a while.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by ford3

almost every thing can be fixed with the engine in the car, except a flattened throw on the crank, sounds like a rod knock to me

I was hoping that. It seems like if it's just a piston breaking or a rod or something like that I could take the head and the oil pan off and replace those parts without removing the engine. That's what Old Chuckles up the street has always done. I expect he'll give me a hand if I decide to do that.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by oldford2

Professor,
Pull one plug at a time and see if the knock stops or diminishes at any cylinder. If it is a rod this test would take all the pressure off the offending cylinder. Just a thought
John

Good idea. I'll go out and do that right now and report.

I tried to identify the piston with the problem with a stethoscope but can't hear anything through the heads. It is definitely on the drivers side though.

[oldford2]

deleted

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by DJ513

I had a very similar noise an it turned out to be a broken piston. I didn't know it was broke till I pulled the piston completely out. Hope you have better luck than I did.

Dan

I actually had worse luck than you last year when my piston totally broke apart, gouged the cylinder, and I had to have the engine rebuilt: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104413

[DJ513]

Same here, Rebored all new parts. I had the machine work done and did the assembly myself. Was $$$$

Dan

[rheltzel]

I feel bad for you, Old Henry. But you'll figure it out, get it fixed, and be back on the road for more adventures.

[Talkwrench]

Bugger ! Sorry to hear Henry.. Mines out of action too at the mo'
NO swimmin' up there Lawrie too many snappy jaws!

[cmbrucew]

Prof.
If not for bad luck, you would not have any.
Bruce

[koates]

Henry, For a quick test you could just pull off one spark plug lead at a time and see which cylinder causes the knock to go quieter. What a pain, always something going wrong with Old Henry. Regards, Kevin.

[George49Ford]

Might be apples and oranges here, but 30 some odd years ago I had a similar sound in '66 Chevy straight six. Turned out it was chipped tooth on timing gear. Might be easier fix than a rod.

[Mart]

It does sound bad.

I wouldn't run it too much.

I might just run it shortly without any belts connected just to rule anything external out, but it does sound deep in the motor to me.

Time to pull the motor down again by the sound of it. (Sorry to say).

Mart.

[Steves46]

This is a real long shot but maybe a loose crankshaft pulley? A few years back, mine was making a very similar noise and it was the crankshaft pulley.

[sidevalve8ba]

When the engine is cold does it knock immediately after starting or after it runs for a bit?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Steves46

This is a real long shot but maybe a loose crankshaft pulley? A few years back, mine was making a very similar noise and it was the crankshaft pulley.

Remember the original post. How could a crankshaft pulley cause "just barely able to run"? I think that girl at Jiffy Lube may have over-tightened the Johnson rod. DD

[Steves46]

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Yup, my eyes missed that part. Better start eating more carrots! Steve

[Gumpy]

Originally Posted by oldford2

Professor,
Pull one plug at a time and see if the knock stops or diminishes at any cylinder. If it is a rod this test would take all the pressure off the offending cylinder. Just a thought
John

this is what I would try first...anything mechanical can be repaired...

[bobH]

I'll offer a WAG... based on events as they happened on my own 47...
burned piston(s). I had problems with pre-ignition/pinging, and eventually found three pistons with holes on top, at edge, down into the ring-lands.
With heads off, easy to see on top of pistons.
Oh, the fun

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by sidevalve8ba

When the engine is cold does it knock immediately after starting or after it runs for a bit?

The knocking is the same hot or cold

Originally Posted by koates

Henry, For a quick test you could just pull off one spark plug lead at a time and see which cylinder causes the knock to go quieter.

Originally Posted by oldford2

Professor,
Pull one plug at a time and see if the knock stops or diminishes at any cylinder. If it is a rod this test would take all the pressure off the offending cylinder. Just a thought
John

Unfortunately, pulling the spark plug wires one at a time didn't identify the offending piston (if there is one). It would sure be nice to know which piston it is before I tear into it so I don't have to remove both heads and all pistons to find out. Any other test to find out?

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Dunno? I'd pull all the plugs first and see if they can tell you anything. If they all look the same, then pull the heads and take a look at and massage the pistons for bearing or wristpin issues.

Jack E/NJ

How do I "massage the pistons for bearing and wristpin issues?"

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by bobH

I'll offer a WAG... based on events as they happened on my own 47...
burned piston(s). I had problems with pre-ignition/pinging, and eventually found three pistons with holes on top, at edge, down into the ring-lands.
With heads off, easy to see on top of pistons.
Oh, the fun

That is certainly a possibility since, just a couple of weeks before the noise started, I put my old Stromberg 97 carb back on in place of the Holley 94 I'd been running. Then after the noise started I checked the spark plugs. They were a bit lighter than tan, more toward white, so I checked the jets in the carb and found that they were the .44's I'd put in to climb Pike's Peak and probably too lean. That's when I put larger ones in hoping it would stop what I thought was just premature detonation but it didn't. Maybe the damage was already done.

[Tinker]

Well that sucks... Maybe talk to Walt about building you an engine over the winter for round 2?

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

That is certainly a possibility since, just a couple of weeks before the noise started, I put my old Stromberg 97 carb back on in place of the Holley 94 I'd been running. Then after the noise started I checked the spark plugs. They were a bit lighter than tan, more toward white, so I checked the jets in the carb and found that they were the .44's I'd put in to climb Pike's Peak and probably too lean. That's when I put larger ones in hoping it would stop what I thought was just premature detonation but it didn't. Maybe the damage was already done.

Why did you pull the 94?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Why did you pull the 94?

I had rebuilt it myself because it was seeping gas when I parked it in the garage at night and stinking up the garage. I also thought it might be part of the missing problem I had. After I rebuilt it, including replacing the power valve, it wouldn't hold gas after parked at night and I had to fill it with my electric pump every morning and choke it to start it. The engine didn't run any better either. So, I decided to put the Stromberg back in and see if it did any better.

I had Uncle Max rebuild my 97 but he left the .44 jets in thinking they were OK at my elevation of 5,000 feet. Maybe they were and that has nothing to do with anything but the plugs looked a little lean to me so I put bigger ones in. Didn't help the noise.

[Old Henry]

I just tried removing a spark plug to see if that made any difference, planning on removing one at a time to try to identify the offending piston. Unfortunately, the noise from the air rushing in and out of the spark plug hole drowned out all other sounds and I couldn't hear anything else.

Other ideas to identify the bad piston?

[tamnalan]

I would do a compression check.

[Jack E/NJ]

>>>I just tried removing a spark plug >>>

Do all the plugs looks the same now? Tan, white, black, wet, etc?

Jack E/NJ

[Mart]

Prof, try removing the lead, rather than the plug.

Mart.

[Mike B]

My thoughts since there is a noise and poor engine performance, it will require pulling a head off and see what's going on.

I can't see (in my mind) how changing jets, adding more choke, etc, would reduce a bearing/wristpin noise.

[ford3]

Henry, there are six pistons that will come out the bottom of the engine with out pulling the head, I have done that when one of my pistons burnt a hole in itself, I cant remember which ones that can come out, been a lot of yrs, the hard part is collapsing the rings one at a time to get the piston back in the bore

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by tamnalan

I would do a compression check.

Just checked compression and got:

1-72
2-78
3-72
4-68
5-75
6-80
7-74
8-74

Does that tell you anything? It doesn't me.

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

>>>I just tried removing a spark plug >>>

Do all the plugs looks the same now? Tan, white, black, wet, etc?

Jack E/NJ

All plugs looked the same - dark - 'cause I just put the Stromberg back in with .47 jets.

Originally Posted by Mart

Prof, try removing the lead, rather than the plug.

Mart.

Did that. Didn't make any difference.

Any more ideas?

[Old Henry]

Some progress! I decided to try pulling the plugs one at a time again and see if I could hear the knock through the very loud noise of the air rushing in and out of the plug holes. It about made me deaf but I could barely perceive the knock except on cylinders 1 and 5 that are both hooked onto the same offset on the crankshaft. That's at least a start to have narrowed it down to one of those two.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike B

My thoughts since there is a noise and poor engine performance, it will require pulling a head off and see what's going on.

I can't see (in my mind) how changing jets, adding more choke, etc, would reduce a bearing/wristpin noise.

I didn't have poor engine performance except when I pulled the choke out enough to cause it when I was checking to see if it was just premature detonation which, along with larger jets, can be and is reduced by enriching the mixture. Of course, when none of that worked I realized it was something else that wasn't solved by any of that. Using high octane fuel can also reduce premature detonation. Tried that too without benefit.

[Jack E/NJ]

So what's the noise like when you disconnect both wires to plugs 1 & 5? Does it sound any different than when you disconnect 2 & 6 or 3 & 7 or 4 & 8? Cpmpression seems kinda low on all cylinders.

Jack E/NJ

[Mart]

The compression numbers seem a bit low, but as they are all similar it is probably something to do with the test technique rather than all 8 cylinders having a problem.

Mart.

[supereal]

Use a long screw driver or a metal rod to your ear and check each cylinder for noise at idle. If you have a stethoscope, so much the better. If you locate the offending cylinder, you will know it is a bearing. We had one of those in our shop a couple of years ago caused by an improper sleeved engine which allowed coolant into the oil pan which, in turn, shucked the rod bearing for that cylinder. Pulling the engine is always the best way to check lower end problems, and to see if the crank is scored. A knock may be as simple as a bad fan bearing. Pulling the choke out to change the noise is odd. It could be a broken valve spring which you can check by pulling the intake manifold. They can be hard to see, so look carefully. Let us know what you find.

[Old Henry]

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Compression spec in the operator's manual is 105-125 at sea level which translates to 70-83 psi at 5,000 feet where I live which all but in is within so the overall compression is OK, especially since no one cylinder varies drastically.

[Mart]

A good point well made.

I'm not used to making adjustments for high altitude.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

So what's the noise like when you disconnect both wires to plugs 1 & 5? Does it sound any different than when you disconnect 2 & 6 or 3 & 7 or 4 & 8? Cpmpression seems kinda low on all cylinders.

Jack E/NJ

Knocking is reduced by pulling the sparkplug wire on either 1 or 5 and totally eliminated by pulling both.

What does it all mean?

[Mart]

99% sure it means you need to pull the motor and investigate the crank and bearings.

Sorry.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by supereal

Use a long screw driver or a metal rod to your ear and check each cylinder for noise at idle. If you have a stethoscope, so much the better.

Tried to hear something with the stethoscope on the heads and couldn't hear anything. I'd have to try to get it on the side of the engine from below. Haven't done that yet.

Originally Posted by supereal

Pulling the choke out to change the noise is odd.

It works great for premature detonation which I thought it was initially.

[Ronnie]

Your done.Time to perform surgery on that flattie.This is some internal engine failure not going to get better.Not a fun job with that particular model but you will overcome and report back as you usually do.Its not your first rodeo.

R

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Knocking is reduced by pulling the sparkplug wire on either 1 or 5 and totally eliminated by pulling both.

What does it all mean?

Sounds like the bearing and / or crank journal is poopy in that location as both of those rods are connected to the same journal. If this is the case, the crank and rods will need to be properly reconditioned. For that, you will need to remove the engine.
If this engine was "rebuilt" by the same guy that "rebuilt" it in the past I'd strongly advise you have ALL of the rods and journals checked by a professional.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Kube

If this engine was "rebuilt" by the same guy that "rebuilt" it in the past I'd strongly advise you have ALL of the rods and journals checked by a professional.

It WAS kind'a pretty, though! Doc Roger as I remember. DD

[Cecil/WV]

By the sound, I think you will have the engine out of the chassis before it is fixed. Sorry for such a negative opinion. Now, prove me wrong and we will both be happy.

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Compression spec in the operator's manual is 105-125 at sea level which translates to 70-83 psi at 5,000 feet where I live which all but in is within so the overall compression is OK, especially since no one cylinder varies drastically.

Correct, on a fresh rebuilt 8BA at 5350', I get 85 - 90 psi across the board (heads have not been shaved).

I wouldn't dream of running that engine until the oil passages and sludge traps had been cleaned out, in addition to whatever the crank/rods need. Pulling the engine is not that big a deal, you can have it out and on the stand in a day. I always have a lot of inertia, trying to figure a way around it, but in the end it's better to just bite the bullet.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Pulling the engine is not that big a deal, you can have it out and on the stand in a day. I always have a lot of inertia, trying to figure a way around it, but in the end it's better to just bite the bullet.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.
At this point my "inertia" that you speak of is greater than my desire to drive (and you know how much I love to drive). So, "Old Henry", will be getting a long deserved vacation from service unless Old Chuckles up the street has some confidence that he and I can fix this problem without removing the engine. That was just so painful the one time I've done it that I won't be doing that again for the foreseeable future. And I don't have a stand nor any knowledge of what to do with the inside of the engine even if I did. I'd have to haul it or send it to someone. . . . Just too much to face right now.

Thanks again for everyone's help and advice. It has been very instructive and supportive.

[oldford2]

Professor,
I know you live up in Utah but don't know how rural your town is. If you have Fordbarners in your area, now would be the time for them to rally to your support and arrive to help remove the engine a see what the problem is. One day of work and you might have an answer. If you are a member of the EFV8 club, maybe there is a club that some members could travel over for a day.

Now is the time to help a fellow Barner

John

[Lawrie]

What a bummer Henry, both our cars need surgery ,but it's no drama,just get the engine out and get into it,at least you are lucky living in the USA and can get parts easily,
The parts for the 33 engine have arrived at my boys place( thanks Fred ),
And
The repairs will be no problem.
Lawrie

[ford3]

Old Henry, before you go to far pull the pan and those two rods, mic the crank, you might just get away with polishing the throw and installing new bearings

[tiquer]

Originally Posted by ford3

Old Henry, before you go to far pull the pan and those two rods, mic the crank, you might just get away with polishing the throw and installing new bearings

It sounds like its too late for a polish . With that much noise Its time to remove and have a closer look. May be someone close by can give you a hand. Wish I was there we have that puppy out and tore down in no time.

[cdan34]

I had the same problem. I was burning the midnight oil and I forgot to put one head gasket on. Stupid mistake ! When I started it up, it ran but the noise made me stop it right away. Off with the head and that was the problem. The pistons were hitting the heads about two thirds towards the diameter of the piston. I checked everything, there was a small mark on the pistons where it was hitting but bearing clearance was OK. I've got 1500 miles on it now, and no problems yet. I was fortunate on that bad mistake!

When you find the problem, let us Know !

Good luck
Cdan34

[1937pickup]

I just feel so bad for you-you take such good care of your car and you love to drive it and now this. I would contact your rebuilder for a refund.

[Old Henry]

Wow! People who really care. I guess that's why I keep coming back to the barn. It's not just a bunch of numb nuts that only seek and share info, there's a real community here to help.

All it will probably take is for me to get excited about another road trip. Then I'll at least pull the pan off and see what I can see where those front two pistons connect. Won't know what I'm looking for but I'm thinking Old Chuckles up the street will know. I'll call him tomorrow for a consult.

Only have two other barners in the state but their both an hour or two away.

Thanks again for all of your caring and support. I'll let you know how it goes, if anything goes at all.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 1937pickup

I just feel so bad for you-you take such good care of your car and you love to drive it and now this. I would contact your rebuilder for a refund.

My rebuilder actually did the last rebuild for nothing. I wrote him a check for the full amount of a rebuild and he never cashed the check. In spite of all of the heckling he's received from some I'd probably take it back to him again since he's been so good to me in the past and I know of no one else in my state that still rebuilds flatheads and has had 40+ years doing it.

[Ronnie]

OH Doing a quick search these fellows have all the equipment required. http://www.huntermachine.com/ There also appears to be more shops that could perform the machine work.
You only have an old v8 ford.The basic machine requirements could be done in that shop in a heart beat.You will need to get that engine apart to confirm what failed.

R

[Old Henry]

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Any harm in running on 6 cylinders?

After a week of withdrawals from not driving "Old Henry", afraid that the knocking sound in the engine would get worse and make things worse before I could find someone to fix it, I had this scathingly brilliant idea last night to just pull the wires off of the plugs on those two front offending pistons and drive on 6 cylinders. So I did. Took a ride up the canyon that I've missed. Was a bit rough and slow on the start from stop and slower going up hill but above 40 mph, when the knocking used to kick in, the engine seemed to run as smooth as on 8 cylinders without any knocking. I don't think I'd take a road trip that way but any harm of a daily cruise on 6 cylinders?

[dwaynec]

If it were me I wouldn't drive it. Even though the cylinders are not firing they are still getting compression that will put stress on the damaged part of the motor. That could cause more damage. Then there is the stresses caused by an engine that is running rough, and the emissions of unburied fuel to consider.

Again this is just my opinion.

[Mart]

Sorry Prof, but it is not a good idea to keep running it. The worn parts are still flailing around.

You need to accept that Old Henry will need some down time. The time you spent driving could have been spent pulling the motor.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

I kinda though that.

I actually have a lead on a guy within a mile of me who may remove the engine and fix it and reinstall it. I'll know Tuesday. That would sure be nice. Hope that works out. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[B-O-B]

Any harm in running on 6 cylinders?
Not if it is a 6 cylinder, not so good if you have 8.!!!

[Mike51Merc]

Back in the old days, guys would just drop the pan and put in a new set of rod bearings. If the journals aren't cooked, you might get away with doing just that.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

Back in the old days, guys would just drop the pan and put in a new set of rod bearings. If the journals aren't cooked, you might get away with doing just that.

Originally Posted by ford3

Old Henry, before you go to far pull the pan and those two rods, mic the crank, you might just get away with polishing the throw and installing new bearings

I'm still interested in this idea that the necessary repair might be made without removing the engine. I have removed the oil pan before so know how to do that and can do that. I'm just not sure what to look for after that. Here's a diagram of the crankshaft, piston, and connecting rods for me to ask some questions that I'd need to know if I try to fix this whether the engine is in or out of the car.




So, first off, I'm not sure what the "journals" are that have been mentioned. Is that the surface of the section of the crankshaft that the connecting rods connect to? If so, how would one know whether or not they are "cooked"?

Is 6211 the bearings that might need replaced? How would I know?

If I remove the oil pan can I grab the connecting rods for pistons 1 and 5 and detect enough looseness to know what the problem is and how to fix it?

How do I know whether it's a wrist pin, broken piston, connecting rod bearing, or "journal" that needs repaired?

I'd dearly love to believe I could fix this with the oil pan off but I have a lot of doubts, even if the engine was out, about my knowledge and abilities.

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

...
How do I know whether it's a wrist pin, broken piston, connecting rod bearing, or "journal" that needs repaired?
....

Complete disassembly and inspection. There are repairs that might get you by for a while, but I assume you want an engine you can trust in the middle of the Great Basin?

[Old Henry]

Sure hope I can find someone to do the job.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Sure hope I can find someone to do the job.

Crate it up and send it to me. It WILL be done correctly the first time. Guaranteed.
Joke all ya want about my "trailer queens" but rest assured each and every one is built to run down the road better than new. That "pretty" goes way beyond what a guy can see.

[KiWinUS]

or "ME"

[Lawrie]

Or Walt,
Henry,you need to take one of these guys offer up,
You. Don't need to end up not being able to travel around in ol Henry ,
We had to do our trip in our fairlane,not as good as traveling in the 33 , but still good fun.
Lawrie

[lonewolf]

Drain the oil. If its a rod the oil will be full of metal or look glittery

[Flowmeister]

Seems like some real genuine offers of help here.
That's great to see!

[the cooch]

My humble suggestion is to grab a runner and throw it in, send the o.g. mill to the shop and get the rotating assembly replaced with stroker crank and parts (or just repaired) then resell the motor you don't need ( or find a spot in the garage for it) when you get the old motor back. Running motor in your area should be fairly easy to find and less money than a major rebuild and you can get the car on the road, pay for the machine work in stages and enjoy the peace of mind you get from the cars original engine being remanufactured carefully. Somebody near you has a hoist, and a motor and some time, I'm 8 hours away with a hoist and an engine ready to throw in the back of the bronco and the next three days off- 'cause the ford barn without you road tripping and posting pics just ain't right!

[BILL WZOREK]

Old Henry:

Let me tell you a story:

There was this major flood, the water was rising the emergency responder went door to door telling every one to leave, they got to this one house the fellow would not leave saying I have left my fate in GOD'S hands ,
He will save me.
The water continued to rise forcing this fellow to retreat to the 2nd floor, again the Emergency responders came this time in a canoe.
They told him Quick get in, He said "NO" I will leave my Fate in GOD'S hands. so the responders left. & the waters continued to rise forcing him to the Roof.
Again the emergency responders came this time in a helicopter this time they dropped down a rescue basket and told him to get in and they would take him to safety, again he said "NO" I will leave my Fate in GOD'S hands.
As the responders left they saw a large wave completely cover the house
sweeping the fellow away to his death,
He went to the pearly gates & he saw GOD, He asked GOD I have lead a good life always trying to do what was rite , always going to church, I put my life in your hands.
I don't understand WHY did you let me Die:::::
GOD responded YOU FOOL I SENT YOU HELP 3 TIMES

The MORAL here is >>>>>>>> HENRY TAKE UP ONE OF THE OFFERS they are all good & sincere ~~~

[moonshine runner]

Originally Posted by Kube

Crate it up and send it to me. It WILL be done correctly the first time. Guaranteed.
Joke all ya want about my "trailer queens" but rest assured each and every one is built to run down the road better than new. That "pretty" goes way beyond what a guy can see.

Man, That is really nice of Mike (Kube), and KiWinUS to offer up that help Craig. Like I said in a recent post, I really appreciate my Ford Barn friends!!

Kevin

[Mike51Merc]

Henry,
Journals are the bearing surfaces on the crank.
Drop the pan and wiggle each rod cap. The one(s) that wobble are the bad ones. Also look for blueing/blackening discoloration, indicating they're "cooked". If they're cooked, you'll be making new friends at the nearest machine shop, and possibly shopping for a new crank & rods.

Bearings are softer than the surfaces they "bear". They are sacrificial, meaning that they are supposed to wear out instead of the components they protect. Sometimes if you catch them early you can get away with just changing the bearings---- it's not the preferred solution, it's just to get by with some more miles.

There was a YouTube video showing the process, but I can't seem to find it for you.

If you continue to drive it, you could turn repairable parts into scrap metal.

[TomO]

The no1 and no5 cylinders share a rod bearing, if you still have the original 29A rods with the floating bearings. The engine should be pulled in order to fit the new bearing to the rod and the journal.

I am pretty sure that you have the floating bearings, because you had to remove the wires on the two cylinders to quiet the knock.

I would not continue to run the engine, you may throw a rod and destroy the block.

[Old Henry]

I am truly overwhelmed by the sincere offers to help fix my engine. Now if I could just find that AWOL Scotty to beam my engine there.

I have sincerely considered the offers including checking on freight charges to ship my engine which would be from $2,000 to $3,000 round trip to and from those who've offered. At least for me, that's quite a bit to add to the repair bill just for transportation. Plus, I'd still have to remove the engine, "crate it up", which I have no idea how to do, then reinstall the engine when I get it back.

If that darn Scotty would just get back to his station for a "beaming" I'd do it in a minute. I may still, as a last resort, if this other angle I'm pursuing doesn't work out.

Thanks again for everyone's sincere concern and offers to help.

You guys are the greatest.

[Marv]

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Henry you like to drive. so why don't you rent a truck and haul it yourself. The mechanic you have been using does not seem to be much help.

[cmbrucew]

Hi Prof.
Call H&H Flatheads
4451 Ramsdell Ave.
La Crescentia, CA.91214
Mike's number is 818 248 2371
Been doing first class work for many years.
Bruce

[hotcoupe]

i cannot recommend H&H flatheads after my engine builder checked the work that they did to a "99" block that i purchased from H&H. lot of money, sloppy work.
tom

[klicker]

I had my coupe shipped 1200 miles in an enclosed trailer for $800. Where did you get the $2-3,000 shipping cost? There's gotta be cheaper ways. Anyway, best of luck!

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I am truly overwhelmed by the sincere offers to help fix my engine. Now if I could just find that AWOL Scotty to beam my engine there.

I have sincerely considered the offers including checking on freight charges to ship my engine which would be from $2,000 to $3,000 round trip to and from those who've offered. At least for me, that's quite a bit to add to the repair bill just for transportation. Plus, I'd still have to remove the engine, "crate it up", which I have no idea how to do, then reinstall the engine when I get it back.

If that darn Scotty would just get back to his station for a "beaming" I'd do it in a minute. I may still, as a last resort, if this other angle I'm pursuing doesn't work out.

Thanks again for everyone's sincere concern and offers to help.

You guys are the greatest.

I've shipped engines all over the USA. Never has one exceeded $475. In fact, of all the cars I've shipped, none of those have exceeded $2000 (round trip).
Send me the entire car and while it's here we can sort out all the other ills.
If you like driving that car how currently is, you'll be like a pig in mud once it is repaired properly!

[Cecil/WV]

Originally Posted by klicker

I had my coupe shipped 1200 miles in an enclosed trailer for $800. Where did you get the $2-3,000 shipping cost? There's gotta be cheaper ways. Anyway, best of luck!

I shipped the engine that we raffled off in Gettysburg from Martinsburg WV to Lockport, NY VIA Fastenal, the fastener folks, for $150.00. Cheapest shipping I know of. All I had to do was bolt it to a pallet and they wrapped it with shrink wrap.

[wga]

Old Henry -- You've got the help you need - pull that motor now, get it on a crate,
ship via Fastenal (check their website for a local store) to one of the builders
here on the FB. And soon you and Mrs. H will be out on the road. While the motors
out, check your engine and trans mounts, brakes, wiring, etc. Get any issues there
squared away.

Hotcoupe - sorry to hear that things did not work out with H&H. I just spoke with Mike at a recent car show. They did a motor I used in a friends woodie. No issues, motor runs fine. (Brizio's shop uses them).

[waterboychuck]

I had fastenal.com ship a belly mower for my 1949 Farmall Cub tractor from St Louis to Spokane,WA for $225. Another quote I got was $616. It pays to shop around.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/en/22/th...782!1580556340

[Old Henry]

I struck out on all of my attempts to get my engine fixed in my state (my previous builder no longer responded to my emails nor phone messages) so I turned my attention away from Old Henry and got my favorite motorcycle running and insured again and was quite content with driving that with Pepe aboard for the foreseeable future. Then I realized that I was overdue for the monthly trip I take with my dad, who bought the car for $100 in 1959, and how much he enjoyed it and would miss it. So, I was just about to haul the car to Colorado for the cooch to fix it for me as he'd offered. Then, just as I was about to finalize that deal I had the thought to dig out my old Early Ford V8 Club roster and call some members in town to see if there wasn't someone local who did flathead engines. Sure enough, the first guy that answered my call knew just who and I delivered the car to him yesterday and he started to remove the engine today. Hope it works out OK. I expect that it will and I'll have Old Henry back on the road again soon if for nothing else than to take my dad on his monthly trip.

Checked in today and he had the engine out of the car and the oil pan and clutch off. Here's a picture of the oil pan showing the bad news indicators in there:



I just reached under the engine the was hanging on the hoist and grabbed the #1 piston connecting rod end and there was plenty of play in it so that's where I expect we're going to find the wear.

I was also curious about the condition of my flywheel and clutch that had been chattering since I turned the flywheel and replaced the clutch with one from Mac VanPelt just in April, 6,000 miles ago. As you can see, the flywheel is burned again.





And so is the pressure plate.



And the clutch disc is already worn down to the rivets in several places.



So, I'll have the flywheel turned again and am sending the clutch to Fort Wayne Clutch today for replacement. Hope that all of that gets rid of the clutch chatter once and for all. It has been so annoying.

When Paul (who's now working on my engine) gets it on a stand and turned over and the connecting rods removed I'll get some more pictures to share of the actual damage.

Of course, the big question will be, what caused the damage in just 50,000 miles and how to prevent it in the future.

[Ross F-1]

Not much question what needs to be fixed there!

That looks to me to be burned oil on the clutch.

[green50]

I'm glad to see Old Henry is is in the process of getting repaired. I'm sure your dad will appreciate it more than anyone.

[JSeery]

Also, I would think it was more of a pressure plate issue than a clutch plate issue for both chatter and slippage. But, if there is oil getting to the clutch it is going to slip.

[Fordors]

The heat checking on the pressure plate is localized between 6 and 9 o'clock and that leads me to believe that the finger at the 2 o'clock position in the photo was high. I agree that there was likely some oil contaminating that clutch assembly but even without that the clutch would chatter. Those fingers are forged and there is no way to adjust height so the machining had to be spot on, or the PP assembled, checked and disassembled and then subsequent machining or shimming to ensure a quality result for finger height. Fort Wayne might use those fingers again, but set it up right, or they may replace with adjustable levers.
Professor, the best thing you are doing here is using the services of a reputable, trusted automotive machinist to do this rebuild. I was glad to see you "took a pass" on the services of a guy who had volunteered to help. Maybe the cooch could have done the job but the guy you selected came with references. What do they say on the TV commercial? Pay me now or pay me later.

[Bolts]

Craig, how big are the biggest chunks and are they steel or aluminum?

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I struck out on all of my attempts to get my engine fixed in my state (my previous builder no longer responded to my emails nor phone messages) so I turned my attention away from Old Henry and got my favorite motorcycle running and insured again and was quite content with driving that with Pepe aboard for the foreseeable future. Then I realized that I was overdue for the monthly trip I take with my dad, who bought the car for $100 in 1959, and how much he enjoyed it and would miss it. So, I was just about to haul the car to Colorado for the cooch to fix it for me as he'd offered. Then, just as I was about to finalize that deal I had the thought to dig out my old Early Ford V8 Club roster and call some members in town to see if there wasn't someone local who did flathead engines. Sure enough, the first guy that answered my call knew just who and I delivered the car to him yesterday and he started to remove the engine today. Hope it works out OK. I expect that it will and I'll have Old Henry back on the road again soon if for nothing else than to take my dad on his monthly trip.

Checked in today and he had the engine out of the car and the oil pan and clutch off. Here's a picture of the oil pan showing the bad news indicators in there:



I just reached under the engine the was hanging on the hoist and grabbed the #1 piston connecting rod end and there was plenty of play in it so that's where I expect we're going to find the wear.

I was also curious about the condition of my flywheel and clutch that had been chattering since I turned the flywheel and replaced the clutch with one from Mac VanPelt just in April, 6,000 miles ago. As you can see, the flywheel is burned again.





And so is the pressure plate.



And the clutch disc is already worn down to the rivets in several places.



So, I'll have the flywheel turned again and am sending the clutch to Fort Wayne Clutch today for replacement. Hope that all of that gets rid of the clutch chatter once and for all. It has been so annoying.

When Paul (who's now working on my engine) gets it on a stand and turned over and the connecting rods removed I'll get some more pictures to share of the actual damage.

Of course, the big question will be, what caused the damage in just 50,000 miles and how to prevent it in the future.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I would suggest getting an original 9" or 10" (whichever size that setup takes) core pressure plate and clutch disk to send to Fort Wayne for rebuild rather than use the assembly shown here that just came out of the car for the core. Depending on the manufacturers origin of the C&PP shown, Fort Wayne may refuse to rebuilt that core anyway.

Here is a 9" C&PP assembly that i recently had done by Fort Wayne. The quality of their rebuilds is awesome and MADE IN THE USA!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Bolts

Craig, how big are the biggest chunks and are they steel or aluminum?

The picture shows the oil drain plug that is magnetized to give some scale to the size of the chunks and none of them are stuck to the magnet so they are not iron but something else.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Fordors

Professor, the best thing you are doing here is using the services of a reputable, trusted automotive machinist to do this rebuild. I was glad to see you "took a pass" on the services of a guy who had volunteered to help. Maybe the cooch could have done the job but the guy you selected came with references. What do they say on the TV commercial? Pay me now or pay me later.

In defense of the cooch, he was not actually going to repair the engine but had contacts with others in Colorado that would do the job. He actually had an engine to exchange for mine if I wanted to.

I greatly appreciate his and others' offers to help.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I would suggest getting an original 9" or 10" (whichever size that setup takes) core pressure plate and clutch disk to send to Fort Wayne for rebuild rather than use the assembly shown here that just came out of the car for the core. Depending on the manufacturers origin of the C&PP shown, Fort Wayne may refuse to rebuilt that core anyway.

Fort Wayne has the clutch for my car on the shelf and will send it the day they get mine rather than rebuilding mine.

[Kube]

Henry, It appears to me as if that flywheel and pressure plate is junk.
If the flywheel has already been ground twice, it is most likely near the end of its specified life. That heat checking... well, it will be difficult to remove properly.
As you must certainly have realized by now, the labor is the costly part of repairing this stuff properly.
Parts are fairly reasonable.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Fort Wayne has the clutch for my car on the shelf and will send it the day they get mine rather than rebuilding mine.

I would guess putting any clutch plate back in with the existing pressure plate will end with the same result! I would be much more concerned with the pressure plate (and the flywheel).

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by JSeery

I would guess putting any clutch plate back in with the existing pressure plate will end with the same result! I would be much more concerned with the pressure plate (and the flywheel).

The clutch includes the pressure plate and clutch disc.

[Andy]

That clutch looks very light duty. I thougt a 10" 9 spring clutch was stock for your car. I would not put anything but a 10" back in. The one you took out might be for a 60 horse. I would also get another flywheel due to the heat checking.

[TomO]

When you install the clutch, block the pressure plate fingers to release the pressure on the disc. Tighten all of the bolts and then remove the blocks. This will help prevent warping the pressure plate. A warped pressure plate will cause chatter.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Andy

That clutch looks very light duty. I thougt a 10" 9 spring clutch was stock for your car. I would not put anything but a 10" back in. The one you took out might be for a 60 horse. I would also get another flywheel due to the heat checking.

The clutch is 10" and stock style.

[Old Henry]

Well, here's the culprit:



On the left is the bearing for the front two pistons as it came off of the engine, worn and broken. On the right is the bearing from the next set of pistons that isn't in as bad of shape but still showing wear.

The mystery is all of the metal in the oil pan. It seems like more than what would have come off of this one worn out bearing.

Another mystery is what caused it to wear out and how to prevent it from doing so again.

That worn out bearing looked like a quick fix to me - just pop a new bearing in, put it back together and back in the car and let me get "on the road again." Might even have been done from underneath without removing the engine. Good thing I'm not in charge.

Paul took the whole crankshaft out to check it for wear. It turns out that the bearing surfaces need turning again but if that is done bearings are no longer available to fit it. In other words, the crankshaft is worn out and shouldn't be used any more. That was the bad news.

The good news is that I still have the original crankshaft for that engine that has never been worked and has its original surfaces. Paul was a bit shocked when I brought it in. The surfaces measured 1 thousandth wear is all, plenty of surface to clean up and fit with new bearings for many more miles to come.

The other bad news was that, when the oil pump was removed, there were metal particles all in it



and the oil pump well.



Somehow particles from the disintegrated bearing made it through the oil pump screen and into the oil passages, meaning that such particles were being pumped by the oil through all of the wear surfaces. That's bad. So, what looked like just a bottom end job turns into an entire tear down to clean out all of the metal particles from all of the oil passages and replacing the oil pump before we're done.

Other good news is that the pistons and cylinders looked fine and could have been left alone but for needing to tear down to rinse the metal fragments out of everything.

[Old Henry]

Paul is willing to let me get the parts to save his profit on them. He will tell me the size of bearings I need to get when the crankshaft gets machined. So, my question is, are all bearings created equal or are there some that are better than others and, if so, where do I get them?

Same thing for oil pumps. Any sources have better ones than others?

[Ross F-1]

I can't say that I've ever seen a bearing shell completely broken in half!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

I can't say that I've ever seen a bearing shell completely broken in half!

When I first started this engine after it sat for 31 years it had a knock at idle and the oil pressure was low. When I had it rebuilt after 10,000 miles all of the bearings were split in two.

[super flat]

Henry, I would let the rebuilder get all the parts, if you carry them in there is no way he can guarantee them. Good luck, Gary

[super flat]

Split bearings are NOT NORMAL the tolerances were wrong somewhere! Gary

[V8COOPMAN]

Could be just the angle and the lighting, but those bores sure do look shiney/smooth. Did the last "rebuilder" hone the cylinders the last time around? Sure do hope the proper rod caps end-up back on their respective rods. Pictures sure make one wonder if he knew anything about setting-up floating bearings. DD

[Admiral]

Oh man, that's some scary stuff! I hope your rebuilder can get Old Henry back on the road quickly.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by super flat

Split bearings are NOT NORMAL the tolerances were wrong somewhere! Gary

That is Paul's diagnosis of the bearing failure. He keeps emphasizing how critical the clearances are for floating bearings and how any extra gap can cause them to fail prematurely. That's why he's putting so much effort into measuring, truing, and sizing all bearings and surfaces.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by super flat

Henry, I would let the rebuilder get all the parts, if you carry them in there is no way he can guarantee them. Good luck, Gary

Right on! Let the man who knows how to build the engine get the best bearings that he can find for the job. Why nickel and dime this and possibly have something go wrong again. Same thing with the oil pump. Let him get a quality (USA made if possible) oil pump and test it before it goes in the engine. JMO

[Bob C]

I agree with the others, let the builder get the parts.

Bob

[flatford8]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Right on! Let the man who knows how to build the engine get the best bearings that he can find for the job. Why nickel and dime this and possibly have something go wrong again. Same thing with the oil pump. Let him get a quality (USA made if possible) oil pump and test it before it goes in the engine. JMO

Ya...what he said !!!!

[bobH]

There's gotta be an explanation for all the material in the pan. Does the volume in the pan approximate what is missing from the bearings ? If not, keep looking. JMHO

[B-O-B]

I agree on having the builder source the parts. That should something happen he cannot tell you that there is no warranty as he did not get the parts. had that happen when building this house. I was going to buy the plumbing fixtures & the plumber told me he could not warranty them. Sure enough he dropped the double cast iron porcelain sink & chipped it. He had to purchase a new one & it was not very cheap.
You might also to ask your builder if those rods need reconditioned.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Could be just the angle and the lighting, but those bores sure do look shiney/smooth. Did the last "rebuilder" hone the cylinders the last time around? Sure do hope the proper rod caps end-up back on their respective rods. Pictures sure make one wonder if he knew anything about setting-up floating bearings. DD

Those aren't the cyl walls the piston is down the hole just looks like cyl walls its the piston skirt.

R

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Those aren't the cyl walls the piston is down the hole just looks like cyl walls its the piston skirt.

R

To me it looks like the bottom of the skirts are about 2" up
from the bottom of the cylinders.

Bob

[Ronnie]

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Look again the left hand piston is up the hole about 3/8"The Rh piston is flush with the bottom of the bore.

R

[JSeery]

Might be a mirror reflection in the polished cylinder wall? Look where the end of the rod is, seems up a long way for the piston to be at the bottom of a stroke, but may just be the camera angle.

[JM 35 Sedan]

It's difficult to tell exactly what we are seeing of the pistons from the bottom of the cylinders. As I look at the bottom of those pistons, it appears to me that pieces of the skirts are broken off. It also looks like some reflections are confusing the picture.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by B-O-B

I agree on having the builder source the parts. That should something happen he cannot tell you that there is no warranty as he did not get the parts. had that happen when building this house. I was going to buy the plumbing fixtures & the plumber told me he could not warranty them. Sure enough he dropped the double cast iron porcelain sink & chipped it. He had to purchase a new one & it was not very cheap.
You might also to ask your builder if those rods need reconditioned.

Originally Posted by flatford8

Ya...what he said !!!!

Originally Posted by Bob C

I agree with the others, let the builder get the parts.

Bob

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Right on! Let the man who knows how to build the engine get the best bearings that he can find for the job. Why nickel and dime this and possibly have something go wrong again. Same thing with the oil pump. Let him get a quality (USA made if possible) oil pump and test it before it goes in the engine. JMO

Originally Posted by super flat

Henry, I would let the rebuilder get all the parts, if you carry them in there is no way he can guarantee them. Good luck, Gary

Agreed. I'll let him get the parts. I know he's already had discussions with VanPelt.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

It's difficult to tell exactly what we are seeing of the pistons from the bottom of the cylinders. As I look at the bottom of those pistons, it appears to me that pieces of the skirts are broken off. It also looks like some reflections are confusing the picture.

Originally Posted by JSeery

Might be a mirror reflection in the polished cylinder wall? Look where the end of the rod is, seems up a long way for the piston to be at the bottom of a stroke, but may just be the camera angle.

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Look again the left hand piston is up the hole about 3/8"The Rh piston is flush with the bottom of the bore.

R

Originally Posted by Bob C

To me it looks like the bottom of the skirts are about 2" up
from the bottom of the cylinders.

Bob

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Those aren't the cyl walls the piston is down the hole just looks like cyl walls its the piston skirt.

R

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Could be just the angle and the lighting, but those bores sure do look shiney/smooth. Did the last "rebuilder" hone the cylinders the last time around? Sure do hope the proper rod caps end-up back on their respective rods. Pictures sure make one wonder if he knew anything about setting-up floating bearings. DD

The flash on the camera reflecting on the cylinder walls really is confusing.
The pistons are well down in the cylinders as is indicated by how far in the connecting rods are.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by bobH

There's gotta be an explanation for all the material in the pan. Does the volume in the pan approximate what is missing from the bearings ? If not, keep looking. JMHO

The volume of the material in the oil pan far exceeds what could have come off of the busted up bearing. I expect the full tear down may well reveal something else gone pretty bad.

[JSeery]

I'm betting the pan material is bearing material and nothing else. It can look like a lot in thin sheets. Unless it's partly steel, that's about all it could be. You have the main bearing to look at, with that much stuff in the oil passages it most likely damaged the main bearings also.

[4tford]

I played with the pic a bit and this seems to show the piston location better

[JSeery]

Those cylinders walls are strange, don't think I've ever seen walls that polished, look like mirrors.

[4tford]

You can only see 1/4" of wall on the left piston and none on the right

[Old Henry]

I'm not sure what the big interest is in figuring out how far down the cylinder those pistons are but here's the bigger picture that was cropped to that one that shows the other cylinders and how far down the pistons were. The ones seen in the cylinders were also that far in, that is, way in.

[Admiral]

Aside from the devastating bearing carnage is the rest of the engine ok? Were any of the rods harmed? Did the block sustain any damage?

[Old Henry]

Don't know of any other damage, yet.

[Ol' Ron]

I'd like to recommend a full flow oil system on the next rebuild, like the early Canadian engines. I do that to all my engines. Kinda keeps the chunks out of the bearings.

[the cooch]

Really happy to see that Craig's engine is being handled properly, and locally. My only intention/offer was to show up and install an already running (on a stand) '47 motor I almost purchased for myself recently. From the start I insisted "Old Henry's" motor needed to be seen by a machinist or go to a shop, not any more tinkers or hobby builders like myself! First thing I asked was about the EV8 club in his neck o' the woods- I just couldn't fathom that no one in his area was able to help -hooray early v8 club! I was about to start one heck of a rescue thread though, if I made a road trip out there with an engine, and a hoist and pulled the swap. Good luck, god speed and keep those trip photos coming! -Chris

[TomO]

The last time I saw a bearing break like that, the re-builder tried to file the rod cap to get the correct clearance. The egg shaped hole puts quite a train on the bearing.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by TomO

The last time I saw a bearing break like that, the re-builder tried to file the rod cap to get the correct clearance. The egg shaped hole puts quite a train on the bearing.

Tom, It appears that OlHenry has finally seen his "rebuilder" for what he is, a "hack". Most of us knew this a long time ago. Just because a guy has been "rebuilding" engines for decades does not mean he has the necessary talents to do so correctly.
I would not be surprised if a new block, etc. will be required in this instance. I simply can't imagine there's much remaining to work with on this one.

[prpmmp]

What could have caused this?? Would it show up in oil changes??,noise?? It seemed it was driven quite abit, did it just eat itself up from bad machine work?? Pete

[Old Henry]

I have no complaints whatsoever about previous work on my engine. I've driven this engine 50,000 very hard miles since those bearings were installed and have no reason to believe that there was any deficiency in previous work that caused this. The builder that installed them worked 40 years as a machinist in a diesel engine shop and was meticulous about clearances. He came highly recommended from several around the country including just recently by other Fordbarners. But, alas, he seems to have finally retired as he said he was going to after my 2008 rebuild.

Things just wear out, unfortunately. It's the natural consequence and price of having as much fun as I have with my car.

[Vic Piano]

Good for you Prof! Build em, drive the h_ _ l out of em, repeat... LOL That's what Flatheads are for... At least in my book.

[super flat]

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Originally Posted by Old Henry

I have no complaints whatsoever about previous work on my engine. I've driven this engine 50,000 very hard miles since those bearings were installed and have no reason to believe that there was any deficiency in previous work that caused this. The builder that installed them worked 40 years as a machinist in a diesel engine shop and was meticulous about clearances. He came highly recommended from several around the country including just recently by other Fordbarners. But, alas, he seems to have finally retired as he said he was going to after my 2008 rebuild.

Things just wear out, unfortunately. It's the natural consequence and price of having as much fun as I have with my car.

Henry, I think what you do with your car is great, but there was a mistake made on your engine your damage is not normal ware. I sincerely hope your next rebuild goes much better! Gary

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Things just wear out, unfortunately. It's the natural consequence and price of having as much fun as I have with my car.

I agree that 50,000 miles is a decent service run, but that damage is more than just normal wear. Something let go in a big way to eat up those bearings like that.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I have no complaints whatsoever about previous work on my engine. I've driven this engine 50,000 very hard miles since those bearings were installed and have no reason to believe that there was any deficiency in previous work that caused this. Things just wear out unfortunately. It's the natural consequence and price of having as much fun as I have with my car.

The unfortunate reality here is that your pictures don't show the results of "worn-out"...your pictures show continued, hammered-carnage. Driving up and down some dirt roads does not constitute "very hard miles" like you seem to think. The VERY HARD miles you racked-up, (and the ones that caused the "natural consequences" of such as shown in your pictures) were the miles you continued to hammer on it while ignoring the very first indications of a problem. I agree with KUBE and a couple of others...that bearing pair was wrong from the start. It's only by the grace of God that you didn't grenade the block and crank. Good luck! DD

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

I agree that 50,000 miles is a decent service run, but that damage is more than just normal wear. Something let go in a big way to eat up those bearings like that.

Could have just been a defective bearing like my piston that came apart in spite of the builder's perfect assembly. Even the best mechanics can't prevent that. I don't think every mechanical failure can be blamed on human error. It just happens. That's why I've asked about recommendations for bearings.

Even though I'm going to let Paul order the parts, he seems to be open to any input I want to give him about things even though he may not act upon it. So, I'd still like to get anyone's recommendations of brands and sources for bearings so I can tell him in case he wants to check it out.

Any suggestions?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by super flat

Henry, I think what you do with your car is great, but there was a mistake made on your engine your damage is not normal ware. I sincerely hope your next rebuild goes much better! Gary

So do I. We'll see how it goes. Maybe better. Maybe worse. One can't tell without actually driving the engine 50,000 miles. But, oh, the fun of it.

[Old Henry]

Lest anyone think that the "right mechanic" can get a flathead to last forever, even Ford didn't believe that. Here is the entry in the repair manual just before the instructions for removing the engine. Don't know how "used" an engine would have to be to get replaced but they weren't made to last forever.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Lest anyone think that the "right mechanic" can get a flathead to last forever, even Ford didn't believe that. Here is the entry in the repair manual just before the instructions for removing the engine. Don't know how "used" an engine would have to be to get replaced but they weren't made to last forever.

Is there ANYONE out there in FordBarn land with a better command of the English language than I apparently have, who can possibly better-explain that the engine in question did not WEAR OUT? Portions of THIS engine have self-destructed (more than once now)........as a result of maybe some badly-chosen parts, questionable assembly methods, lack of attention to cleanliness, or possibly a combination of all of the above. Flatheads don't just fall apart into tiny pieces at 30K or 50K miles. I hope your new guy really has the knowledge, experience and character commensurate with properly building a genuine Ford flathead engine. Once again, good luck! DD

[Binx]

The weird mad-scientist side of my brain tells me the bearing failure was due to harmonics traveling through the crank from back-to-front. Old Henry drove with a bad u-joint for some time and on a downhill deceleration, that sends the stresses forward to the end of the line. Case in point: I know a guy who kept having his Toyota front pulley (harmonic type) come loose and ruin the key. No symptoms. Turns out his flywheel was loose. I've seen bearing fatigue like this isolated to one or two bearings but the cause was usually long-term detonation. Old Henry was always careful with his timing and jetting.

Lonnie

[Marv]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Could have just been a defective bearing like my piston that came apart in spite of the builder's perfect assembly. Even the best mechanics can't prevent that. I don't think every mechanical failure can be blamed on human error. It just happens. That's why I've asked about recommendations for bearings.

Even though I'm going to let Paul order the parts, he seems to be open to any input I want to give him about things even though he may not act upon it. So, I'd still like to get anyone's recommendations of brands and sources for bearings so I can tell him in case he wants to check it out.

Any suggestions?

I always preferred Clevite 77 inserts which i think is now called Michigan 77. I have used them in my own engines that i knew needed the crank turned to be perfect and i ran them till the rings were wore out, and they never came apart. I also preferred Hsting steel rings.

[flatjack9]

As far as bearings go, I'd try to find some old Ford cadmium-silver bearings.

[Old Henry]

Finally, some helpful parts recommendations.

That's all I was really looking for.

I'll pass those on to Paul in case he hasn't heard about them.

[Mr 42]

I Agree something caused this engine to disintegrate its not Worn out in any way.


This engine needs to come completely apart,remove the cam bearings and front oil plug. And sent of to be cleaned properly.
The clean out all oil channels.
The Crank oil channels need to be cleaned to and the oilpump replaced, or disassembled and cleaned.
One flake, is all its need to be in this situation again.
And triple check the crank roundness and dimensions, same goes with the rods

The engine must be so clean so You should be able to eat of it before you assemble it.

Regarding the clutch, it looks that it could be badly adjusted so it slipped during normal driving, or that the driver rested his foot on the clutch pedal causing the clutch to slip.

[don-wi]

I would talk to the people who are going to grind the crank what they prefer you use for bearings. I would consider having the connecting rods re-sized if it was my engine.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by don-wi

I would talk to the people who are going to grind the crank what they prefer you use for bearings. I would consider having the connecting rods re-sized if it was my engine.

Consider? The way the rods were obviously hammering, it would not be a "consideration". At this point, it is a MUST.

[Marv]

I think that any short cuts you may consider, will put you in the same shape you are now in, with more money wasted. I hate to see this considering the way you like to drive the old girl.

[OLD...BILL]

The guy grinding the crank, should be the one to order the bearings , and I would sure be talking to him or someone about line boring the mains, is this the same block and a different crank, or same re-ground I've lost track ?? and from the looks of the flywheel I would be looking at the pilot bearing again?? something to thing about..... OLD.....BILL

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by OLD...BILL

The guy grinding the crank, should be the one to order the bearings , and I would sure be talking to him or someone about line boring the mains, is this the same block and a different crank, or same re-ground I've lost track ?? and from the looks of the flywheel I would be looking at the pilot bearing again?? something to thing about..... OLD.....BILL

Don't know what "line boring the mains" means. Hopefully Paul knows.
The crank going back in is the original that came with the engine when it was new and has never been ground. The pilot bearing in the flywheel is a ball bearing, not just a sleeve/bushing. Wouldn't hurt to replace it if I can find one. The ones I've found are just the sleeve/bushing kind.

[Tinker]

Line boring is done to to true the surface that travel in a line. Like the crank or the cam. Fairly common practice and is certainly necessary for a basic rebuild.

Replace the pilot bearing if necessary, hey it's there and a cheap part, that flywheel is spent for the kind of driving you do.

Looks like it is going in the right direction. But what do I know and it's just my opinion

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Don't know what "line boring the mains" means. Hopefully Paul knows.
The crank going back in is the original that came with the engine when it was new and has never been ground. The pilot bearing in the flywheel is a ball bearing, not just a sleeve/bushing. Wouldn't hurt to replace it if I can find one. The ones I've found are just the sleeve/bushing kind.

Within your response is at least one huge clue as to why your engine came apart. You'd told us in the past this particular engine was "rebuilt" twice. You've also been proud (rightly so) to inform us that you've driven a kajillion miles on it.
Now you tell us the crank has never been ground? Um Henry, that engine was NEVER rebuilt. Installing new bearings against an old crank is a certain recipe for disaster. I can only imagine what else was "rebuilt" in such poor fashion.
The fact you got as many miles out of that engine was a true blessing.

I am happy to know you have finally decided to take this engine to a guy that apparently actually knows what he is doing.
Line boring may not be necessary as these old Ford flat head engines can handle a lot of punishment. However, it is certainly something I'd check during the preliminary inspection. Not only does it assure the crank and cam are running on a single TRUE plane, it should also make that plane perpendicular to the lifter & piston bores.
I can almost guarantee the rods will need to be reconditioned. If they are still round, well, it would be a miracle.
As others have advised, be 100% certain that block is thoroughly cleaned prior to reassembly. A true rebuilder will know this and make certain cleanliness is paramount. It is perhaps as important (or nearly so) as measuring ACCURATELY and fitting parts CORRECTLY.

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by Kube

Within your response is at least one huge clue as to why your engine came apart. You'd told us in the past this particular engine was "rebuilt" twice. You've also been proud (rightly so) to inform us that you've driven a kajillion miles on it.
Now you tell us the crank has never been ground? Um Henry, that engine was NEVER rebuilt. Installing new bearings against an old crank is a certain recipe for disaster. I can only imagine what else was "rebuilt" in such poor fashion......

From Post #110 by Old Henry:

Paul took the whole crankshaft out to check it for wear. It turns out that the bearing surfaces need turning again but if that is done bearings are no longer available to fit it. In other words, the crankshaft is worn out and shouldn't be used any more. That was the bad news.

The good news is that I still have the original crankshaft for that engine that has never been worked and has its original surfaces. Paul was a bit shocked when I brought it in. The surfaces measured 1 thousandth wear is all, plenty of surface to clean up and fit with new bearings for many more miles to come.

[Mart]

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I think the original (unground) crank that Craig is referring to was left out when the engine was first rebuilt.

[Old Henry]

Just to clarify the history of my engine as I understand it as there seems to be some confusion or misunderstanding about it.

Car was bought in 1959 with unknown history and was driven only a mile or two a day until 1975 when I parked it by Mom's house where it sat for 31 years.

In 2006 I towed it to my house to begin a minimal restoration limited to getting it running, pass safety inspection and licensed, painted and reupholstered.

9 days later, after only changing the oil, replacing the battery and cables and starter solenoid and putting an acceleration pump in the carburetor we started it up and drove it for 10,000 miles before having it rebuilt in October 2009. (Here's the movie of starting it up that has had just short of one million views on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY389S_KUjs)

When the rebuilder opened up the engine he found everything original except a couple of valves that had been replaced. The bearings had the original date of manufacture on them - August 1947. The crank pulley was loose on the front end of the crank so he decided to replace the crank with another used one that he machined and replaced all bearings when rebuilding (I still have those original bearings and crank). He also informed me that I had been running the battery hooked up backwards (I wondered why my ammeter read backwards) and that my carburetor was not the original for the engine as it was a Stomberg 97 last used in 1937.

He machined all surfaces and replaced all pistons, rings, bearings, valves, and I don't know what else as well as rebuilding the transmission and drive-line.

I kept everything that came out of the engine as I've saved everything that's ever come off of the car for historical purposes.

In May 2013, after driving 30,000 miles the #3 piston came apart. (Story here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104413) I took it back to the same builder who redid the whole top end including sleeving piston #3 and boring all pistons out to a larger size so he could put in all new larger pistons. He also replaced the valves and split valve guides with later solid ones. I don't know that he did anything with the bottom end as far as remachining any bearing surfaces nor replacing bearings. I'm pretty sure that he didn't since they were all still OK.

The rest of the story is this thread with the bearing problem now after another 20,000 miles, total of 50,000 since first rebuild.

Hope this helps resolve some confusion.

[bobH]

Another thing to add to Kube's 'list'... I've never found in all of Craig's posts that the engine was ever balanced. I can't imagine, the way he drives it, WHY? Especially when it's considered that the crank came from one source, the rods source not mentioned, and the pistons changed at least twice. Maybe I missed this detail?? JMHO
(AND, I'm sure price is not an issue. I recently had a 59 engine balanced, and cost was insignificant, compared to the overall engine cost.) Again, JMHO

[Andy]

I had my rotating assy balanced and they ruined everything. I had the repacement parts balanced also. The guy wanted to balance the rods by adding washers. I recovered the parts and went to a third place. The engine is not as smooth as my unbalanced one. These engines do not turn ten grand and the factory balance is great. The only thing I would do is check the rods and match the weights if way off. Buy a digital scale at HF and weigh the rods and pistons yourself.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by bobH

Another thing to add to Kube's 'list'... I've never found in all of Craig's posts that the engine was ever balanced. I can't imagine, the way he drives it, WHY? Especially when it's considered that the crank came from one source, the rods source not mentioned, and the pistons changed at least twice. Maybe I missed this detail?? JMHO
(AND, I'm sure price is not an issue. I recently had a 59 engine balanced, and cost was insignificant, compared to the overall engine cost.) Again, JMHO

Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Andy

I had my rotating assy balanced and they ruined everything. I had the repacement parts balanced also. The guy wanted to balance the rods by adding washers. I recovered the parts and went to a third place. The engine is not as smooth as my unbalanced one. These engines do not turn ten grand and the factory balance is great. The only thing I would do is check the rods and match the weights if way off. Buy a digital scale at HF and weigh the rods and pistons yourself.

Andy, If they ruined everything, it is apparent they did not know what they were doing.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Kube

Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.

What is not good with one sleeve?

R

[Old Henry]

I'm not sure exactly how it works but the same size of pistons went into all cylinders so I'm assuming that the one that needed the sleeve was bored slightly larger to fit the sleeve in. No problems now for 20,000 miles so far.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by Kube

Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.

Back in the 'day', I did some checking on at least two flatheads that I had. I used the 'thread' method to check 'big-ends', then 'total'. Pistons were matched to 'originals', as I have never found what stock was, for 46-48 59 engines. This seemed to work ok, for the street engines that they were. If there is a published number for 46-48 pistons, I'd like to know it.
Regarding sleeves... sometimes you just 'have to'. Seems to me, a properly installed sleeve works ok in a street engine. On the flip side of this comment, I've seen a few examples of sleeves not done correctly. Old posts on this board have explained properly installed sleeves. One example of 'bad' sleeves, I posted awhile back about an 8BA engine that appeared to have been assembled with a near-standard piston in what appeared to be a 3 3/8 bore. And, it came in as a running engine. It turned out, after disassembly, it was found that cylinder HAD a sleeve, and the remains of that sleeve were in pieces in the pan. Situations as this give a bad name to sleeves.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I'm not sure exactly how it works but the same size of pistons went into all cylinders so I'm assuming that the one that needed the sleeve was bored slightly larger to fit the sleeve in. No problems now for 20,000 miles so far.

If he bored that sleeved cylinder to match the others, that's a good thing.
I have seen engines wherein only one or two cylinders were sleeved and the bore(s) were not matched to the others.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

What is not good with one sleeve?

R

Not a thing as long as ALL the bores are of the same diameter.

[Ronnie]

I agree Henry's post is quite vague. I have done many sleeves and couldn't see your rational. Yes they should all have the same finished bore size.Your statement holds true if the bores differ.Can be done but is a non acceptable repair scheme.

R

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Kube

Not a thing as long as ALL the bores are of the same diameter.

I might be off base, but who would take and engine in to get rebuilt, and be told:

We need to sleeve a hole"

Okay...

Then the shop would order 7 pistons at ones size, and one at another?

Have you actually seen this?...I'd be extremely surprised...again...talking shop work, not when Bubba took it in and used what he had.

And realistically, what would a 1/2 cube of inches, and .01 of compression, affect the performance of an engine like a FH V8?

My personal opinion, is if I had a 60 over block and a standard sleeve size in a hole,,,no one could tell a bit of difference in a street build.

[dwaynec]

My take on this is that if different sized pistons are used the engine will be out of balance.

[jimTN]

It used to be common to find a tagged remanufactured engine with different size bores. If H's engine had one bore sleaved then I would guess the bad piston or a piston pin cut into the cyl wall on thay cyl. I have never seen so called cadium bearings break apart like his did, what I have seen is a lot of wear an a spray of molten metal on the crank and block sides.
The bronze inserts would wear and turn a crank blue from heat. For those that do not know, there were two types of full floating bearings for flathead v8s, one was a soft material commonly called cadium silver and the other was a harder material that appeared to be bronze.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Mike B

I might be off base, but who would take and engine in to get rebuilt, and be told:

We need to sleeve a hole"

Okay...

Then the shop would order 7 pistons at ones size, and one at another?

Have you actually seen this?...I'd be extremely surprised...again...talking shop work, not when Bubba took it in and used what he had.

And realistically, what would a 1/2 cube of inches, and .01 of compression, affect the performance of an engine like a FH V8?

My personal opinion, is if I had a 60 over block and a standard sleeve size in a hole,,,no one could tell a bit of difference in a street build.

Actually this method is all too common. Even today engines rebuilt by Jasper, a very large corporation, does this as a matter of course. They go the "whatever is cheaper" method.

In a flathead it may not make a huge difference but it will make a difference.
I suppose it all boils down to doing a job correctly or doing it half a--ed.

[sidevalve8ba]

Some mechanics are fast, others half-fast.

[40cpe]

I would be more concerned about the imbalance created by different sized pistons. I don't think anyone who would bore just one hole would balance it.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by jimTN

If H's engine had one bore sleaved then I would guess the bad piston or a piston pin cut into the cyl wall on thay cyl.

It was a bit more than just a little scrape. This was my piston that caused the cylinder wall damage. Sleeving was the only option.



And, if those piston fragments weren't enough, how about this splintered wrist pin jammed against the cylinder wall so hard that the connecting rod was bent?


Full story here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104413

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Kube

Actually this method is all too common. Even today engines rebuilt by Jasper, a very large corporation, does this as a matter of course. They go the "whatever is cheaper" method.

I see your point, I suppose a large rebuilding house could save a buck or two per rebuild and over the course of time it would add up to some decent profit.

Sad thing.

[bobH]

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Regarding different size pistons, and weights... it's been my experience that the piston suppliers I've used supply their pistons to the ORIGINAL weight, no matter the size. This has been for near-stock sizes, say up to about 60 or 80.
Regarding the bent rod... now we see that at least one rod was likely replaced. I hope its weight was compared to the other 7.
Side observation/comment...this engine has had at least two recent 'rebuilds', and now going for a 3rd. And I see that a full-floater crank is still being used. I'm a little surprised, as I'd have ditched that crank and rods, at least two rebuilds back. I guess that's just me. I'd at least have an 8BA crank, but more likely a Merc or aftermarket crank. If cost were a factor (which at this point I doubt) I'd go for the 8BA, as my builder/machine shop guy hands them out for free. JMHO

[Old Henry]

Tell me more about the difference between the 59A crank and the 8BA crank please. I know nothing.

[bobH]

59A crank uses full-floating rod bearings, as (most) all 32-48's have. Bearings cost more, and some 'talent' is required to properly fit them (so they will 'float'). 8BA crank uses rods with 'locked' bearing inserts, which has been the common 'industry-standard' from 1949 forward (regardless of make). Insert bearings cost less, and are generally easier to install, requiring less talent (assuming the machinist does a proper job). A few 59A engines came originally equipped with 8BA rods and crank, as well as 8BA valve assemblies. (My 47 has one of these 59A engines - probably a 59A replacement engine.)
Your engine is partway there, as you indicated in post 167 that you probably have 8BA valve assemblies.
It would be logical, at least to me, to add the 8BA rods and crank, or maybe a Merc crank if you want a few more inches.
All this info is available in old posts, and I believe, in Ron's book.
The info i've posted here, pretty much goes out the window, if you select a stroke larger than 4.0 (Merc). I think larger strokes require floating rod bearings.

[Old Henry]

Thanks for the info on the 8BA crank and bearings.
Other than being cheaper to buy and easier to install, do the locked bearings last any longer? It wouldn't seem that they would since all the wear is only on one side instead of dividing it between two sides.

[bobH]

Some of us believe that floaters can last a long time, maybe approaching 'forever'. I think Ron posted recently about re-using old, original, floaters. Of course, he took a little flak over the comment. I have one friend, over 85, who has a bucket of old, original, floaters, that he routinely uses in his own engines. I've known this person for nearly 20 years, and he has never had one of his 'recycled' engines fail. (I'm talking stockers, no race/hot rods.) JMO
(There is still the puzzle of what went south in your engine. Where did all the material in the pan come from? Hope I didn't miss a post. Your bearings don't appear to be the cause of the problem - only the result of another problem.) JMO

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by bobH

There is still the puzzle of what went south in your engine. Where did all the material in the pan come from? Hope I didn't miss a post. Your bearings don't appear to be the cause of the problem - only the result of another problem. JMO

Agreed. I'm still wondering about that too.
It may well be something as mysterious as the "harmonic" thing Binx talked about in #153. If so, and it was caused by the bad U-joint, hopefully that won't be repeated.

[Old Henry]

Got the dip stick boss in so took it down to Paul and to check status.
He has delivered the engine to the machinist who checked it out and didn't find any glaring problems with anything as far as the block went. Cylinders were fine as well as pistons, etc. He's going to remove the cam shaft and valves and flush it all out then reinstall them. He's also going to machine the crank then check the fit of the rods and resize them if necessary. Then he'll order the bearings to make sure to get the right ones and fit.

In discussing the source of all of the metal in the oil pan with Paul, he showed me how all of the bearings were totally devoid of their top layer of silver metal on both sides which would account for all of the silver pieces in the oil pan. He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.

Knowing the difference between the 59A and 8BA cranks he didn't think there was any reason to change as long as the clearances on the 59A crank were right.

Hopefully it all gets just right this time and lasts much longer.

We'll see.

[V8COOPMAN]

[QUOTE=Old Henry;946395]

He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.
QUOTE]

So WHO might have been responsible for getting those clearances "right".....TWICE? DD

[1937pickup]

Henry-I know you are getting a lot of advice and people are spending your money like the government. One thing I would recommend is having the fly wheel, pressure plate and disc balanced as a unit. The guy who re-built my engine recommended doing it, he was right. Engine runs very smooth. As for the fly wheel I would have a machinist check it out, there must be specs on how much it can be ground.

[OLD...BILL]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Got the dip stick boss in so took it down to Paul and to check status.
He has delivered the engine to the machinist who checked it out and didn't find any glaring problems with anything as far as the block went. Cylinders were fine as well as pistons, etc. He's going to remove the cam shaft and valves and flush it all out then reinstall them. He's also going to machine the crank then check the fit of the rods and resize them if necessary. Then he'll order the bearings to make sure to get the right ones and fit.

In discussing the source of all of the metal in the oil pan with Paul, he showed me how all of the bearings were totally devoid of their top layer of silver metal on both sides which would account for all of the silver pieces in the oil pan. He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.

Knowing the difference between the 59A and 8BA cranks he didn't think there was any reason to change as long as the clearances on the 59A crank were right.

Hopefully it all gets just right this time and lasts much longer.

We'll see.

YES I hold the same hope ( it gets just right ) this time, too, I wish there was talk about " line boring and balance " I'am a big fan of both, especial in this case line boring of this engine, but ?? so be it. ..it will be just right "so now the PILOT BEARING" use the bronze oil lite, bearing this time, not the roller bearing type, and check it on the trans. front input shaft, for fit ?? .....OLD....BILL

[Binx]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

In discussing the source of all of the metal in the oil pan with Paul, he showed me how all of the bearings were totally devoid of their top layer of silver metal on both sides which would account for all of the silver pieces in the oil pan. He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.

I have to disagree. This is classic "fatigue" failure due to hammering a properly fit bearing. If it was an improper fit it would have melted the outer surface and scored into the next two layers.

Lonnie

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Binx

I have to disagree. This is classic "fatigue" failure due to hammering a properly fit bearing. If it was an improper fit it would have melted the outer surface and scored into the next two layers.

Lonnie

What do you mean by "hammering a properly fit bearing"?

[Binx]

Here: Look at "surface fatigue"

http://www.wilmink.nl/Clevite/Clevit..._tech_info.pdf

Lonnie

[Old Henry]

Indeed. Of all of the possible causes determinable from the appearance of the damaged bearings, surface fatigue does look like the most likely.

Recommendations for me as the operator to avoid such include:

• Don't lug the engine
• Avoid premature detonation
• Avoid overfueling (don't know what that is)
• No "hot rodding"

As far as I know, I have religiously kept all of those rules and will continue.



I will also be replacing the oil pump so that there is no oil starvation which can also cause bearing damage.

Otherwise, for the mechanic, just replace all of the bearings using proper preparation (grinding) of surfaces and installation techniques.

Great article with everything a person would need to know about bearing failure. I've saved it in my valuable information documents.

Thanks

[Mart]

Overfuelling means the mixture is too rich.

Mart.

[Admiral]

Originally Posted by Mart

Overfuelling means the mixture is too rich.

Mart.

Just curious, how does an overly rich mixture lead to bearing failure? I would think you'd want things a little fatter than too lean. Does a rich mixture lead to oil dilution and therefore hampered lubrication?

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Admiral

Just curious, how does an overly rich mixture lead to bearing failure? I would think you'd want things a little fatter than too lean. Does a rich mixture lead to oil dilution and therefore hampered lubrication?

Exactly... gasoline is not a lubricant.Gasoline in the oil is a huge "no-no".

[Ross F-1]

From previous threads, I understand Henry has been running jets in the mid-to-high 40's, hardly "fat". If anything I'd worry about being lean. A fuel pump leaking into the crankcase is a more likely cause of thinned oil, but I haven't heard of any other evidence of that.

[Ronnie]

Read post #1 he was driving it with the choke on.That will give you fuel wash.

R

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by klicker

I had my coupe shipped 1200 miles in an enclosed trailer for $800. Where did you get the $2-3,000 shipping cost? There's gotta be cheaper ways. Anyway, best of luck!

I agree. That seems like a lot to ship an engine. Good luck with this project/repair.

[Mart]

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He was running with the choke on while trying to diagnose the problem, which had already happened. The lean jets are used because of high altitude.

50,000 miles is a lot for a flatty, especially an old one. maybe it has just plain wore out, or some sort of accellerated wear was triggered by the recent teardown (20,000 miles ago) caused by the piston breaking up.

Hopefully careful and clean assembly with meticulous checking of parts refitted will enable it to be assembled up again and good for another 50,000.

I don't think a driver in the 50's would have expected to get 50,000 miles out of his 48 without getting an exchange motor fitted.

Lots of off road (unpaved) usage could have also brought on the accellerated failure, from dirt and dust ingress.

No-one knows what really happened, we're all guessing. but it is what it is. it's a motor that had new pistons fitted 20,000 miles ago and now is having the bottom end replaced.

if it were mine, once pressed back into service, I would (at my leisure) obtain a second motor, and have it gone through, and ready to fit. it may not be called on in an emergency, but i would be considering fitting it when the current motor has (lets say) another 30,000 on it. The pistons will have 50,000 on them.

These are old engines, they were never designed to last 250,000 miles without attention.

I acknowledge that some barners have got much higher mileages out of their motors. but in those cases the users and care taken to achieve those mileages are not typical.

Mart.

[TomO]

The concerns with the full floating rod bearings are:
The over-sized bearings are hard to find.
Machine shops do not always understand that the rods must be bored to resize them for correct clearance. You cannot just grind the cap to reduce clearance.
I would also balance the engine after resizing the rods.

8BA rods with the fixed bearing must be used with a crank that has an oil hole for each rod. The bearings are easier to find. There are still some NOS cranks available. The bearings are much easier to find. The cost is probably very close to reconditioning the 29A rods and sourcing the correct floating bearings. Henry is going to need at least 2 new rods.

Also Henry needs to know that you cannot continue to drive a car with loud noises coming from the engine or drive train. If he doesn't know how to determine what is causing the noise, he should take it to a mechanic. Even mechanics that only work on modern cars, can isolate the noise in our old cars.

[Ross F-1]

Excellent summary, Mart!

[George/Maine]

My 47 59a had a knock, if it were in the old days in the 50s I would have driven it till it quit. I found a 53 8rt and just replaced it. It looks to belong in there.

[Bruce in southern OH]

I have been reading this awhile, is a rebuild in the works or would it not be quicker to purchase a engine from Fordbarner???? Also, nice engine on auctions and evil-bay, eBay item number:191332230456, have no interest in the seller, just looking to get him up and running,

[Old Henry]

Rebuild is underway.

[Al in MN]

Waiting to hear any news on the rebuild,sure hope it all goes well...
My 48 just had a coil fail no fun but the replacement coil makes like a new car out of it as it now starts on the first turn.........
Al

[Old Henry]

Got the new clutch from Fort Wayne clutch and the new oil pump from Carpenter. Machine shop has put it off another week. Meanwhile, Paul replaced one worn out kingpin.

[Old Henry]

In the mean time, Pepe and I have been doing our road trips on my favorite motorcycle. OK, it's my ONLY motorcycle. OK, maybe you wouldn't actually call it a motorcycle. It's a Honda CT70 trail bike replica made in China but with a larger 90 CC engine. (Actually, a glorified Tote Goat, if you remember them.) I affectionately call it my "Chinese Junk" (and so it is). Lights went out on our last trip Thursday and, after several hours trying to fix them yesterday, I couldn't fix them so put the thing back into storage for some future day. I'll just hold my breath now for Old Henry to get us back "On the Road Again".

This picture from our last road trip Thursday that finished the thing off. OK, so I'm 10 lbs over its weight limit. Good thing I put heavier springs on the back.



Yeah, how proud we were (Pepe and me) to be leading the expedition including my sister on her 150 scooter, my daughter on her 175 trail bike, and my son and his girlfriend on his 300 road bike.



Made it to the top of Alpine Loop. Saw some beautiful yellow quaking aspens. Had to pull over a lot to let the faster cars go by.

[Andy]

Make sure they pull the plugs in the oil galley.The rear one is special. Dont get them mixed up. Pull the fuel pump bushing so the line can be rodded out. I will send you my driver if the machine shop does not have one. This is imperative due to the trash circulating in the oil. Shim the front relief so the pump relief is controling. I would sure put in the late crank and rods. I think most people don't know how to set up the full floating bearings. You will have better oil pressure with the late stuff.