[henry494]

Mike,
You make some good points, but my personal experience counters some of them, so my reply to you is based only on my experience and does not speak for all.

"1) If a person asks for help in determining how to better decipher the judging sheets he/she will be attacked, bashed, vilified, and driven from ever entering fine point again."
I disagree here, as this thread is really about Pete's whining about the scores he received in French Lick for the reproduction parts he used and some over-restoration on his car. It's is also about some items that may have been incorrectly scored, and how we as car owners have to deal with that due to the subjective nature of the judging process. If the distance didn't prevent it, I would still gladly go over his whole car with the judging sheets and help him, even after all of his whining. It's also about Pete's lack of knowledge of how current Model A Blue Ribbon judging is conducted due to his lack of participation, and his apparent inability to understand this no matter how many people advise him.
I have people ask me quite often for help, and I always give that. My friends who are involved in this crazy part of the hobby do so as well, I witness it all the time.

"2) Fine point judging has matured to a point where access to original parts by way of the internet, makes reproduction parts unnecessary as eventually the NOS part can be found."
Very true. The parts are out there, a person just has to keep searching. Yesterday, I found a clutch pedal, not nos, but I cannot see any wear on the ribs. If it weren't for the grease, I wouldn't know it was used. There were so many nos parts available at the French Lick swap, it's make you dizzy. Truly, Mike. The stuff is out there, and not always at a price that breaks the bank. I dig a lot in the non-Ford piles, as those folks don't always know what the Ford stuff is, and let it go for a song. That's a big part of the enjoyment of doing a fine-point car, "The Hunt."

"3) As long as there is an NOS part available somewhere in the world, in someone’s collection even if it is not available to the general population reproduction parts will be unacceptable for full points."
True, and the Judging Standards support this, to a point. We'll never know what's truly not available and/or when "the well runs dry" on certain parts. However, the Standards are written so that the person who does find that original part will be scored higher than the person who chooses to use repro. But, the Standrads are also written so that if a peron is able to make the judges wonder whether a part is gennie or not, he gets the benefit of the doubt and gets the points as if it is original. Repro parts can, in many instances, be modified to appear original. Not all of them, but many.

"4) Restoration of the fine point class of cars has become available only to the wealthy."
Nope, can't agree with this at all. I don't know everyone's personal financial level, but I am pretty close friends with several of the few owners of cars that have ever scored over 490, and several of cars in the 450 to 490 range. I can tell you, this group is full of low to medium budget guys that do the far majority of the restorations at home with their own hands. Honest. For myself, I am definitly not wealthy by any means, not retired, work long hours, have a busy family, etc, etc. Our Phaeton was done at home in about five years time. I did nearly all the work except upholstery, plating, and engine internals, at home. Others I won't mention by name, have done the same, and even more. I hope they will read this and chime in with their two cents so that you will be encouraged to continue your and your son's quest for a Blue Ribbon car.

"5) Judges decisions on the amount of points is up to the judge and there is nothing required to done assist the owner on how to inprove. (example 50% off point for reproduction parts is not in the standards anywhere and depending you/where it is judged it may change)"
The judging sheets do provide some insight to the owners about what they need to improve. However, I have to agree that they don't do a lot, nor are they designed to. We have to network and help each other a lot for this. E-mail me, and many other Blue Ribbon fanatics with questions for help and see what kind of response you get.
It's unfortunate I wrote about 50% deductions. That is not written into the Standards anywhere. It is the deduction a particualar Team Captain uses in Area 22 for reproduction deductions. However, when using the expanded 5000 point judging system currently being used, where the scores are expanded 10 times for judging individual components, then divided by 10 for the final score in the area, a 50% deduction on one item amounts to a very small overall deduction. Not easy to explain without an example of the judging sheet in front of us. I was responding to Pete's comments and my reply only applied to Area 22, I was not speaking for all areas, and I did not make that clear.

There has been an overall decline in Blue Ribbon participationover the years. That's one big reason why I keep responding in theis thread, I don't want people like you and your son to get discouraged by one person's whining.
Red Ribbon participation has grown at the same time, and the quality level in Red Ribbon sure has increased. You make a very good point about maturity in an event or hobby using model airplanes as an example. Couldn't have picked a better example for your point. As the Judging Standards have become more detailed, so too has the restorers' ability to restore more and more like what Henry Ford rolled down the line. Sure, most of our Blue Ribbon cars are "over-restored" to some degree, I doubt anyone will disagree, but they are more accurate than ever before. Just compare to the cars that were resstored in the 70's with pure gloss chassi and engine compartments!

"What does this mean to me and my family, as my 16 year old son is working on a Model A? After reading all this we have decided to build the car to touring class grade and give up on fine point. Unless I win the lottery, even with two jobs I cannot afford to build fine point car. "
Again, this is why I'm staying engaged in this thread. There's no reason why you and your son have to give up that goal. Yes you two can afford to do a Blue Ribbon car, and yes you can do that at home with basic skills and basic tools. I am here to tell you that I did exactly that, twice. There are two Henry Awards on our shelf, 1991 and 2001. Both cars built on a low budget at home with just the basics. YES YOU CAN.

"What is next in the evolution of judging? Will it become a thing of the wealthy where they send out the cars to be restored and pay for it by the month until it is finished. Is that not how concurs cars are done?"
I'll share something very personal in response to that. At the MARC Indianapolis meet in 1991, Bruce Bone, who had a beautiful 400A, and I were holding our Henry Awards while Ken Keely was taking photos. Bruce leaned over to me and said, "I jealous of you Dave." Knowing what a wealthy man Bruce was, I was surprised and asked what the heck was he jealous about? Bruce said, "You built you car your self." I was beaming with pride because it was true. However, I did whisper back, "I'm jealous of you too Bruce, because I'll never be ablt to write a check as big as you have for your car!" (Terry Deters did that restoration for Bruce)
Really Mike, you and your son can do this.

Dave Lopes