Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

Bought 46 Merc Woodie. Finally determined
That I have 51 engine (or at least 49153 engine -bolt on bell housing). Had throw out bearing that rattled w clutch depressed. So took to my mechanic to change bearing clutch pressure plate and disc and pilot bearing. The replacement 38-48 10” clutch parts would not bolt up to flywheel. Ordered 9.5” 49-53 cluth parts
. Reassembled car and same rattle. Mechanic says it has probably rattled since 51 motor was installed. He says either live with it or drill the fly wheel to fit the 10” 38-48 clutch.
What do you think?

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

Does it make the noise with the clutch pedal depressed only for enough for the throwout bearing to contact but not release the clutch? That is, just as you begin to feel resistance from the release arms on the clutch pressure plate. Or only when the clutch is depressed far enough to disengage the clutch? Or both?

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

Thank you for responding! Sorry, I did not have it long enough to answer the engaging part of your question. I know When clutch pedal fully depressed I get rattle that sounds sort of like the ball bearing in a spray can when you shake it. No noise when pedal released and clutch engaged. Mechanic now thinks with 9.5” 49-53 engine the springs are rubbing(?) and have been making the noise since 51 engine was installed in my 46 Merc Woodie. The old (38-48?) 10” disc fits the spline but the 38-48 pressure plate would not bolt on to fly wheel so he used the new 49-53 pressure plate. Re assembled the car and same rattle. He asked me to reorder 38-48 parts I returned and recommends machining new holes in 1951 fly wheel to accept the 38-48 pressure plate.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

Isn't a '49-'50 Mercury pressure plate recommended for this combination? Easier than re-drilling the flywheel. Probably cheaper and quicker, too.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

Is there a possibility that your engine has a 49-early 51 Merc flywheel? If so, you need a 10" Borg and Beck clutch and pressure plate (which are hard to find these days.)
Any chance you could post photos of what you are dealing with?
Does your engine have a 49-51 Merc pressed steel bellhousing and matching starter plate?
Look here:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212166

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

is it possible the springs on the disc are contacting the flywheel bolts and making the sound? Dave

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

Thanks guys. Tried 49-53 9.5” pressure plate, that could bolt to fly wheel, and 10” disc that fit 1946 transmission(?) spline. The pressure plate new from Dennis Carpenter, disc was in there. Reassembled car, got same noise as when I brought it in. Could be springs hitting on plate hitting bolts… don’t know for sure. Mechanic thinks need 38-48 clutch parts and solution is to matchine 49-53 fly wheel to accept 38-48 pressure plate. Will that be problem?
As to the engine I have (answering if 49- early 51 flywheel possibility) has been a mystery for me. Realized I had a 49-53 engine (not a 46 Merc/Ford flathead) when realized I had bolt on bell housingÂ…but my heads have radiator hose connections in center (not on radiator end like 49-53 heads are supposed to be). Also have distributor between water pumps, not vertical distributor on passenger side like 49-53Â’s are supposed to have. Also have oil bath oil filter and air filter. Heads marked 59 A-B, intake manifold marked 8 BA 8RT 6520. I found a hard to see/read mark on p-side rear of block: K1G04 (G could be a C, but that doesnÂ’t decode) if third digit is a G then decodes to June 1, 1951. I didnÂ’t know 38-48 externals i.e., heads, distributors, intakes could bolt in to 49-53 blocks? Maybe some owner was trying to make ~51 engine look like a 46?

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

I have photos of rear end removed and flywheel exposed but none showing exact problem as am relying on mechanic about 45 minutes away. I do not see how to upload the photos I have.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

The 8BA family of V8s are all the same block. The truck or Mercury half bell and starter plates are require to adapt to early Ford trans but the clutch also has variations. 49 through 53 Ford cars had the 9.5" Long type clutch wit the 1" 10-spline input for the new 259 series trans. Mercury cars had the Borg & Beck 10" clutch with same size input as early Fords (1 3/8" 10-spline). Pickups like the 48 through 52 F1 had the Long type 10" clutch with the same as early V8 1 3/8" 10 spline input so it's a direct replacement but a person needs the flywheel from an F1 to make it work. Four speed F2 and larger trucks have the big heavy 11-inch clutch but they are too heavy for a car.

I don't know what is making the noise but the clue is that it's only noisy with clutch pedal pushed. The trans isn't turning much with clutch disengaged. The throw out bearing turns and the pilot bearing is too. I prefer the pilot bushing myself. The ball bearing needs grease where the phosphor bronze bushing doesn't need much unless the vehicle is shifted a lot in city traffic. Both eventually wear out though.

If someone is using a 9.5" clutch cover with a 10" disk then that would be a problem. I don't know if it would even fit in there but it's something to check. They never made a 9.5" disk with the early 1 3/8" 10-spline set up. The smaller fingers likely won't work with that big throw out bearing either.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

RotorWrench, Thanks for your help! Do you think 38-48 10 inch pressure plate and disc with fly wheel drilled to accept the 38-48 10 inch pressure plate is a reasonable/workable solution?
Are you saying the 38-48 periferals I mentioned are fine/will work fine on my 51 engine?

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

RotorWrench, Thanks for your help! Do you think 38-48 10 inch pressure plate and disc with fly wheel drilled to accept the 38-48 10 inch pressure plate is a reasonable/workable solution?
Are you saying the 38-48 periferals I mentioned are fine/will work fine on my 51 engine?

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

I did this over 30 years ago when I put a '50 Merc in a '36 Ford with a '39 transmission. It was a long time ago, but I am almost sure I used the Merc flywheel and clutch and everything went together fine.

Have the Merc parts gotten so scarce that alternatives are now required? If I had to re-drill a flywheel, it would be for the Merc pressure plate, not the early Ford.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

Thanks Tubman,I have no indication I have a Merc 51 engine (appears to be 51 ford), think transmission is a 46 Merc. We tried 49-53 pressure plate that bolted to 51 fly wheel and 38-48 disc that fit spline (49-53 disc Did not fit). Same rattle as when came in. Any harm in drilling 51 fly wheel for 38-48 10 inch clutch parts? Will it work?

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

It will work. I'm running exactly that setup in my '41 Merc with late (8BA style) engine. I drilled the flywheel for the '41 Merc 10"clutch.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

I think Tubman got it right. As a side note, I have an 8BA engine in my 40 Ford. It has a 1950 Merc flywheel, Borg and Beck pressure plate and 10 in. clutch disc along with the 49-50 Merc stamped steel bell housing with matching starter plate. The 46-48 10 in. pick up clutch disc. will also work with the Borg and Beck pressure plate. A friend of mine has an 8BA built by Mark Kirby (3rd photo below) that was converted to have the front mount distributer by changing the cam. So, yes, it can be done.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

After I made my last post, I started looking on the internet for a '49-'55 Merc pressure plate. They do not seem to be available. If you have a core, there are places that can rebuild it, but a new or rebuilt pressure plate? They don't seem to be out there.

It seems that it is a good thing that "cadillac512" seems to have found a way with parts that are available.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

A simple solution for replacing the very obsolete Borg & Beck pressure on a '49-'53 Mercury flywheel is a common diaphragm that any good clutch re-builder should have. Finger height, straight or bent finger design depending on throw-out bearing size, and approx.engine horsepower are all that's needed, with NO flywheel re-drilling. Diaphragms are also available as direct replacements for many Long style pressure plates.

I'm running off the shelf diaphragms on my flathead and FE Ford engines from our local rebuilder, South Bend Clutch.



The aftermarket, like Centerforce, is also a good source.


Borg & Beck and Long pressure plates have been out of general passenger car/truck use production for many many years, and for several good reasons; simpler construction, lower pedal efforts and lower costs of diaphragms.

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

I found it cheaper and esier just to have my 53 merc borg and beck flywheel redriled for the correct clutch in my 41, As for your rattel ,your wrench guy should have seen wear marks on the flywheel bolts and the springs in the disk if that was the problem. There would be an odd wear paterns on the presureplat fingers if that were a problem. I hope this is not your problem but I have a old 390 in my F100 that has a worn out thrust bearing on the crank and on cold days it makes the same noise at the same time you are describing. Its been that way for over twenty years and never changes. Like you I thought it was clutch related at first. Tim

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

This reminds me of a problem that I ran into a while ago. I had a noise in my '51 Ford I couldn't track down. I tried everything and couldn't find it. I initially thought it was a throwout bearing, because it went away when I depressed the clutch. I pulled the engine and replaced it with a Mercury I had. I had to swap oil pans, and when I cleaned out the Ford pan, I found a chunk of the thrust surface of the rear main in the bottom of the pan. It was about an inch long. I initially didn't know what it was, but when I compared it to a new rear main bearing I had, it was dimensionally the same. I don't know if it was the actual cause of the noise, but I am going to replace the rear main on the Ford engine and see. (The engine was in good shape otherwise.)

Re: Problems w ~ 51 flathead in 46 Mercury Woodie
 

A well equipped machine shop can redrill any 8ba flywheel for either a 10" Long or B&B pressure plate. The GM diaphragm type clutch can be adapted with the right fingers. I think Center Force has one. They fit a B&B type bolt pattern.