master cylindeer replacement
 

Hi, Does anyone know of an easy conversion method to convert the master cylinder in my 1941 sedan from a single piston to a dual system? I know the original is O.K., but for safety's sake, I would like to have a dual system. It is a stock 3-speed, so there is a clutch assembly to consider. I just wondered if anyone found an easy way to convert....Brakes are stock drums all around and I don't want to change much.
Thanks for any responses,
Tony

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

Tony ECI in C.T. has a kit I used on my 39 Peeekup. I think it is a late seventies mustang dua MSl. I could look through some old pamphlets/receipts and come up with some part #'s later today.

ECI, 1-860-872-7046 and a great website.

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

https://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/ford...r_systems.html

I've got an EC-410 adapter plate on on my '48 truck. Uses a 1967-72 Ford Mustang master cylinder. Might be the correct adapter for '341 sedan, but I don't know.
It's an ok part.....

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

Wow! Thanks to both 48 F-1 pickup and 39 Portlander for the immediate information! That is exactly what I was searching for. At 80, I don't feel like building my own adaptors, etc. Time is of the essence!!!
Thanks again,
Tony

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

Do you understand that a dual master cylinder is difficult to set up and often will not work if one side fails? It is not about just the plumbing, there is not enough pedal travel. Be sure to test it if you intend to trust it!

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

I can't speak to pedal travel on a '41 sedan but I have plenty of available
pedal travel on my truck brake pedal even before it's connected to the master and
about 1/2 as much when it's just mechanically connected to the master. When
bled, about an inch travel before serious brake action...... leaving way over
2/1/2" till the pedal is on the floorboard. (For the pedal to be on the floorboard
the master cylinder piston would have to physically exit the front of the master)

My only issue with the ECI master cylinder adapter is that it's made of aluminum
and since it uses flat head allen socket screws out of physical necessity, I would have
preferred the plate was made of steel..... so I could have tack welded the heads of
those stupid allens. Getting in there with an allen wrench or socket is a real pain.

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

Have you ever checked it with just the front or rear connected? Be interesting to see the results.

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

[QUOTE=olguy;1994558Wow! At 80, I don't feel like building my own adaptors, etc. Time is of the essence!!!

Hey good for you Tony, just a "young'n" @ 58 I hope to still be able to drive if I reach your age:D.

You have probably forgotten more that we may ever know, Fordbarn thrives on the knowledge you guys have. Scott

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

Olguy, whether the dual setup is "safer" is a moot point. This is due to it not being designed for a dual setup from the factory. There MAY or MAY NOT be enough extra travel available to make the brakes work if one side fails.
You also have to factor in cylinder diameters, and the fact that the dual setup MAY need residual pressure valves to be fitted. All this extra plumbing creates plenty of extra potential leak paths.
In my opinion, the better approach is to make sure your existing setup is maintained in tip top condition, including making sure the emergency brake is fully functioning and properly adjusted.
By asking for help you lay yourself open to all sorts of suggestions from all sorts of people. But in my opinion, as an engineer in the auto industry for 45 years, I do not believe the swap to a dual master cylinder, in an application that wasn't designed for it in the first place, is not necessarily any safer. It MIGHT be, but how can you tell?
You would have to set up the dual circuit cylinder setup and then induce a failure and test in on the road conditions, measuring stopping distances.
I don't know anyone that has actually done that.
If you don't want a lot of work, the work you do might be best targeted at making sure what you have is tip top. Inspect the level regularly and drive with confidence.
I am currently building a 32 sedan. It had a dual circuit master cylinder in it and I converted it to a single. I mention this so you don't think I am just a keyboard warrior and I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is.
Mart.

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

I agree with Mart, besides the master cylinder you get will be a reproduction of unknown quality.

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

The conversion has probably been done many, many, many times.
Try posting over on the HAMB. FWIW
Paul in CT

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

I agree that a dual master may or may not be an improvement. Ive got 3 currently on the road , 2 with the ford designed single and one with a dual . The dual needed an aftermarket pdal assembly , not enough travel to activate the second reservoir. Im still not happy with it and can not go back easily .
Ive had and idea ive not tried and would like input .
My new to me 41 is a little hard getting to the master . Ive replaced all components and lines but I like to check the master before i drive . I was going to machine a cap that would allow an external reservoir on the firewall . That way I could easily see a potential problem .
Sorry If I hi jacked the thread . Bottom line is if this modification could work , it would solve the safety issue .

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

As JSeery says, it is imperative to realize that DUAL M/C in a "failure" scenario in one side of your brake system, the Master Cylinder PISTON assembly must travel farther than normal, i.e....a greater distance than when NEITHER side of the system has a leak. Not only that....the FULL "advisable" travel of your M/C piston must be attainable with your final brake pedal and M/C geometry. Your particular application should be designed such that there is enough piston travel available for the piston to exceed normal travel parameters...IF one side of the system develops a leak. Equally important though, your pedal geometry should be such that the pedal must be able to bottom-out against a positive stop (like the floor board in an old Ford) BEFORE "bottoming-out" ("advisable travel") the piston in the M/C.

If you'll study the drawing below and pay particular attention to the green-colored circuit with leak, as well as understanding exactly which cups are creating the pressure to move fluid, you'll see why MORE piston travel is necessary in a dual M/C if one side develops a leak. DD


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...6&d=1444500407


........

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

Hi; had a '34 with a early 1960's Cadillac drum/drum dual MC same large tubing as our Fords. Newc

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

This is not the first time I've heard that early '60s Caddy dual M/C mentioned as a worthy candidate to consider. DD

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

The brakes are the last thing I would consider doubling up on, with an OEM setup, for safety concerns only.
It’s about in the same category as putting in 2 steering shafts because stock it is only one piece of 3/4 inch 4130 tubing and that can get bent if a tree falls on it.

HOWEVER, I have run 2 separate master cylinders in my race cars many times with a MECHANICAL front to rear bias adjust that could be done while driving. This was for road and rally racing where the road/track conditions would change with dry and rain or pavement to dirt all in one race.

Another good example of “not needing” 2 master cylinders is sprint car and midgets. They are probably the hardest on brakes of any cars. They only have one brake on the front and one on the rear. They use carbon fiber or ceramic pads and their brake discs run white hot when racing yet they never fail.

And lastly, a dual system will fail just as fast as a single system if it is not maintained. While you are thinking about this about this, many times when a dual OEM setup has been neglected for an extended period of time, when it failed, both sides failed because they are integral.

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

Thanks to all of you who responded...I can see (and understand) the reasoning behind each answer. I am now considering just making sure every component is in top shape. Over the years, I've had many rods and stockers with both single and dual setups. I have never experienced a failure...probably as a result of keeping safety foremost consideration in all my toys.
Tony

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

I'm guessing you're "talking" to me...... I haven't checked but I know where
that line of thought is going.
My brake pedal physically stops long before the pedal is on the floor, with
a dry master cylinder. And yes, I will agree it's better not to have the
piston inside the master hitting the end of the bore being the physical stop
for that linkage..... I haven't looked at any mods to build a physical stop into the pedal assembly.

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

Mainly was interested in an data you might have on how well your dual system might work in a failure situation. It's very difficult to design these systems to work in older vehicles and any actual data would be good. I have a system I should be able to test in the future.

Re: master cylindeer replacement
 

The dual master cylinder is designed to full stroke without any damage. You do NOT want to limit the cylinder stroke with any kind of "stop".