Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

I've been having some ignition trouble. Lack of power and backfires. Using this forum and Les' book, I've think I've got a problem with my condenser. As this is an older restoration that I bought and it was done 15 years ago, the condenser is a highly likely suspect. I've done all the timing steps noted and gaps are all ok. Coil checks out with 1.5 ohms across the primary. I'm willing to just change the coil but if that doesn't solve it, the condenser is next anyway.

So, a condenser replacement is cheap and easy, huh? Well, how do I do this one. Check out the pictures. Looks like I have to pull the manifolds to get at it and how bad will that be as far as gaskets, flatness, etc...?

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3639/1...e0e31d3e_z.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7316/1...13105ce3_z.jpg

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

Are your points set at .020, and is the point block OK and opening the points properly?

If you have to change your condensor, yes, that manifold will have to at least be backed off enough so you can get to the lock nut. But if you have a good strong spark when you break your points, your condensor and coil are good. Hold your primary lead about 1/4" off a head bolt, break the points with the key on, and look for a blue spark. It will be stronger on the coil wire than at the points. Also check your plugs for fouling and clearance. Do the easy stuff first.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

Yes, the manifolds will have to come off. As to resurfacing/flattening, if everything has been tight to this point, probably they'll be just fine when they go back. Just get a new gasket at that point - and try to duplicate the kind of gasket you have now.

Once the manifolds are off, on the side of the distributor towards the manifolds you will find the condenser with a sheet metal tab with a common machine screw holding it to the outside of the distributor. Take this screw off loosening the tab.

On the side of the distributor body away from the finger, you may find a hole about at the point where the "other" end of the condenser is found internally. This hole may be open (common even in restorations), or plugged and painted over (you should see the bump) or plugged with a red plastic plug (what I do) Remove the plug if it is there.

Inside the hole you'll see another screw holding the inside contact of the condenser to the inside metal of the distributor. Take this screw out.

At this point the old condenser should be able to be removed.

The installation of the new condenser is the same as the removal in reverse.

Not a hard job. Shouldn't require removal of the distributor which if you're not careful may require re-timing of the engine.

Make sure you clean up where the condenser tab attaches to the outside of the distributor body. You want metal to metal contact here. You may even have some corrosion here now which may be making your condenser non-functional.

No-Al-Ox is a conductive grease (available at places that sell home wiring & components) normally used for aluminum wire you can use to good advantage to make and keep electrical contact at either of the two screws.

Joe K

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

Hi Drinkman,

Welcome to the Barn first thing. Second, since you live in Georgia, I would remove the exhaust manifold and replace with a stock manifold. I would do this for two reasons. 1) that manifold will cook your condenser in about 5 minutes after it gets hot (I know, which is why I took mine off). 2) You live in Georgia, it gets hot there in the spring, summer and fall.

This is what I did, if I ever want to put my heater manifold back on (Director Special-a solid block of iron like yours) I kept the exhaust and intake together so I don't have to re-machine them. I just pull the non-heater off and slip the Director back on. I also just bought an autolite heater with the removable heater top.

Another thing you can do is convert to 'modern points' which moves the condenser inside the dist. body or move it to the coil up on the firewall. I am not sure how to do this, I just saw it done here.

Mike

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

Thanks for all the input. Looks like it isn't a 10 minute job. Guess I will have to schedule a weekend for this.

Ray - yup. 0.020, opening and closing nicely. Terrible spark, very weak. Plugs are in good shape. I hoped and tried to eliminate everything prior to that condenser.

Joe - thanks, if I keep the same manifold, I like the thought of not resurfacing. If I decide to change the manifold to get rid of the heater, will I need to surface the new exhaust manifold with the intake? (Mike in Oakland has some good points)

I agree, Mike, I want to get rid of the heater as it may be a contribution to the condenser failure. I did notice that the core is removable (at least, stamped on the manifold is a statement to pull the tube off in the summer) but I don't know if that solves my fundamental problem. If the heater manifold comes off, it will never go back on. I do live in Georgia. Maybe I can sell it to someone in Alaska? I haven't decided if I want to do the conversion to modern points yet. The car is not a points car, just a driver (at least it will be as soon as I can get it over 40 mph).

So - based on this input: Buy a manifold, take the intake and exhaust to my favorite machine shop for surfacing, replace the condenser (consider upgrading to modern points). Put is all back together, and then sell the heater manifold here on Fordbarn.

Darn. Oh well, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

Drinkman, I converted to modern points for that reason. That and I should be able to go to most auto parts stores and by v-8 ford points. My car is by far not a points car and I never want it to be. I have to much fun with her on the road.

Mike

p.s. yes you have to surface the two manifold together.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

My guess is that heater fried your condenser. Get rid of it. It's almost spring.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

One other thing to check would be the amount of side play in the distributor shaft itself. My tudor when I bought it didn't run well. I set the gap, and then it wouldn't start. My dad was around, and is also an A man, had a go at setting the points gap. When he went to set them, there was no gap at all. He grabbed the shaft and wobbled it and could get the points to open and close. The distributor got a rebuild with new shaft and bushes, and now runs like a dream. A .002" amount of play in the shaft will affect the point gap by the same amount, which also shows how worn my shaft and bushes were.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

My advice is to completely remove the distributor for maintenance. In order to do this you will have to remove the manifolds in order to access the locking screw on the side of the head.

I also notice you have the pop-out cable anchored down on the #8 head stud. You will have to remove the nut. After you have removed the nut and cable very quickly re-install the nut with the clamp and torque it down to 55 ft. lbs. or you will likely allow the head to warp and end up with water down in the oil pan.

With the distributor removed, definitely replace the condenser with a quality one from Bratton's, Snyder, or A&L. Check to see if the thin wire that connects the upper and lower plates is intact and not shorted out. This is a good time to give the distributor an overhaul and learn about the process. There is lots of good information available. It may need new bushings and a new shaft. Lots of things to look at that may be contributing to your ignition problem.

I would also replace the heater manifold with the regular type as it will always be in the way and will be creating heat against the distributor as Glenn in Camino says. He could also tell you more about that #8 stud and water down into the oil pan.

Tom Endy

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

I didn't have any side play in the distributor. Oil did not appear to have any water in it. All the head nuts were checked in the last month to be 55 ft-lbs.

Full Disclosure History:
When I got the car in November, it ran but did not check it beyond 5 mph as the brakes were bad. As this was not my first project car - I did what I normally do. Put it up on the jack stands and decided to spend time crawling underneath. First project was to rebuild the brakes, then fix the emergency brake system, then add seat belts. Then drive it - up until then, I would start it, let it idle and drive it only on the driveway until brakes worked. Then after brakes and seat belt, I took it for the first drive off the driveway and found it missed and backfired beyond 25 mph.

Also, first full tank of gas revealed the gas gauge did not work and also leaked badly. Fixed the float and replaced cork gaskets. Then I found plugs improperly gapped and timing off. Checked head nut torque, all but one at 55 ft-lb, one at 45. Fixed that. Fixed plugs and points gap. New top speed 40 mph. Backfires, lack of power. Warm start - very bad and performance worse than cold.

I've figured out how to start it, what settings work best on the GAV and timing so here it is 3 months after receiving it that I actually post on this forum what is going on to make sure it is not my own fault.

Guess I have to begin to order distributor parts and exhaust manifold. I have access to a good support system here with the local Model A club and I also have a great machine shop I've worked with in the past (when I asked if they could help me with a Model A, their response - "we worked on Model A's when they were covered by warranty").

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

A cautionary note here: Many times the distributor will rust solid inside the head. This makes it difficult to remove without breaking the stem of the distributor. Then you get to pull the head.
If it is stuck, take special care with breaking it loose. Penetrating oil and a soft touch with working it out of the head.

Been there, done that, remember some of it.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

Good point about the stuck distributor. A good tool is made to remove the stuck distributors and can be purchased from most or all of the Model A parts houses.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

I would remove the manifold and replace the condenser with the distributor still in place. No real need to compound matters by breaking the distributor. I would just fix it and enjoy it as long as I could before I risked breaking the distributor. The distributor housing is easy to break.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

I know not many on this board approve of the modern upper plate set up, but would it be possible to use a modern upper plate (with the condenser relocated up on top) with the old condenser still in place? I know sometimes it's left there as a dummy, just for show. Then the manifold would probably not have to be removed.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

Sure, but before you spend the money do a search for pros and cons on the new style upper and lower plates and quality of the condenser used with that set-up. FWIW
Paul in CT

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

I was just thinking it would be less trouble and probably a lot less aggro and not that expensive I've been running the modern set up on two cars for years with no problems.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

Ditto JBill
"I was just thinking it would be less trouble and probably a lot less aggro and not that expensive I've been running the modern set up on two cars for years with no problems."

I started doing it when the original style points rubbing block would wear very quickly and the "short proof" condenser was not available.
Installed on three of my own and on many other cars.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

The parts houses sell a little metal heat shield to protect your condenser. Works good with a manifold heater. The manifold heater is an original accessory and you will find that many non-model A people will find it really interesting when looking al your car. It also throws quite a good amount of heat, I imagine even in your neck of the woods you have some cold. The A's ran them for 80+ years without a problem, it will work just fine for another 80 years. Also, you take it off, you'll have a hole in the firewall.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

The heat shield can't be used with a manifold heater, there isn't enough room. Another reason to avoid the distributor heat shield is the distributor can't be removed without removing two head nuts and running the risk of disturbing the head gasket.

Re: Is this going to be as bad as I think?
 

You are correct and for GOOD reason !!!!!!! I've never tried it but have been told that you can't run two condensers. I do figure that it may be worth a try. There is NO need to invest in the so called modern upper plate setup. You can pick up a V8 condenser at a local parts house and connect it to the coil. If you run original style wiring harness you connect the condenser to the switch side of the coil (red wire) . I don't run a condenser in the distributor on this one. As a side note, If you try this, the condenser needs to get a good ground where it mounts. Better get a spare condenser or two while you are at it. The cheap China V8 condensers have a bad reputation of failure.