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Early V8 Dyno Work I have read, with great interest, the work of Ted Eaton and his Y block, dyno tests.
Has anyone done anything like that with the first generation V8's? Or does anyone have any dyno runs on there own engines that they would like to share? Frank |
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There are several books out there on the topic. One is JWLs (who post often here on the Barn) book. Joe Abbin also has books out with dyno data.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work The Aussie Mike Davidson has books out with dyno info
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work JWL says 400+ dyno runs, that should give you some ideas.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work JWL's are real world tests.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work You cab buy it from Max VP.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work I'll have to get JWL's book.
Can I assume that no one else has had their engine on a dyno (what about a chassis dyno), even to jet the carbs? |
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Ended up going up 1 jet size on Main Jet, a single Stromberg 97 carb. Standard 81A engine 83 thou over. Edelbrock Heads. Dont have figures handy. Phil NZ |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Main jets size
Lawrie |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work I have recommended dyno tuning to several people who did so and liked the results.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Dave Tatom has done dyno runs on a blown flathead he races at Bonneville. He is in Mt Vernon, WA, and tests his flatheads, as well as other engines, in Renton, as I recall.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work I have dyno tested several Ford Flathead V8's. The standard build for a street Flattie will make 150 HP while an all out build (normally aspirated) will break the 200 HP mark. I did dyno a blown Flat Head V8 for an old school dragster that made in excess of 450 HP but that engine was set up on 'Kill'. Ted Eaton.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Thank you, very much, Ted. Are those dyno results posted somewhere on your web site?
If not, could you give general specs for a 150 HP and a 200 hp build? Such as, cubic inch, approx C/R, cam and carburation? |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Oh, one other thing, did the ignition timing vary much between the 150 and 200 hp versions?
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I have had my engines on the rear wheel dyno a number of times however the results must remain a secret. All I can say is more than one HP per cube at the wheels and over 200 MPH on the race surface. Very valuable for getting a good jetting tune up. Ronnieroadster |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work I doubt that anyone has reached the 200 hp mark with a normally aspirated flathead. using regular gas (91/93 oct). The reason I say this, is: the ports wont pass enough air. They come close but at around 48/6000 RPM depending on displacement, the ports shut dowm. I built a 294 blown engine for Ron Horrell to replace the 296 engine I build 15 years ago. Using a Magnason /Eaton blower his engine produced 235 HP ay 4500 red line. With 5 lbs of boost. It also produced 300 ft /lbs or torque at 3000 rpm with 3 pounds of boost. I would suggest that if anyone makes a new block he work on the intake port allot. Must get rid of the bowl.
A garden hose will only pass so much water, with mother nature pushing on it. |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work the engine in our dragster is 276, 4/71 blower at 13 lbs ,home made heads ,has run 9.3 at 141 mph , with the weight of the dragster we think about 350hp.
Lawrie |
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Ronnieroadster |
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Because the Eaton Balancing website concentrates heavily on the Ford Y-Block builds, other engine builds are not posted on that site. I can see why there's not a lot of engine dyno information out there for the Ford Flat head V8 engines. They are not the easiest engine to get hooked up to an engine dyno so many of the dyno shops out there will not set up for them. The 450 HP supercharged Flathead was on nitro methane and serious boost. That one made everyone's eyes water as it was running zoomies and the shop was getting a full blast of burnt nitro fuel. It was a solid 9 second runner in the quarter mile. The 200+HP normally aspirated Flathead was a Bonneville engine that was just breaking the 200 HP mark at 203-205 HP. That particular engine was 294 cubic inches at 10.1:1 compression ratio and was running on 110 octane racing gasoline with a Hogan's sheet metal intake manifold and a pair of 390 cfm 4V Holley carbs. Camshaft was a Potvin 425. The piston design required that the Offenhauser heads be machined accordingly for piston clearance in the cylinder heads. The combustion chamber cc's are 73.6 while the piston domes are 25 cc's. Exhaust header design was also critical on that particular engine. Without looking it up, I vaguely remember it running at 24° total timing for the best horsepower numbers. Tried to post pictures of the pistons and combustion chambers but this site asks for URL links which I don't have. I'd have to look at the build details for the 150 HP version for the Flattie but remember it having Edelbrock heads, Offenhauser two deuce intake with new Speedway carbs, the small Isky camshaft, and Fenton cast iron headers. Final cubic inch on that one escapes me right now. Compression ratio on that one was for pump gas premium and idled nicely. Higher horsepower versions than this one have been done but those get ragged for running as everyday street engines without a large gain in horsepower. Ted Eaton. |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Ronnie ,our strip is at or very near sea level as we are right on the coast.look up Benaraby raceway on google maps.
Lawrie |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Ted, regarding pictures.
Either click "Post Reply" or the "Go Advanced" icon, then near the bottom of the page, there will be a tab that says "Manage Attachments", click that a box opens with Browse buttons, click Browse and it take you to your hard drive. Click the picture you want, then upload, then "ok" and it will be attached to the reply. Do you remember the HP, peak rpm for the 425 Potvin? |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Ted - Thank you for the interesting information. If you ever run across it, could you post the displacement of the 150 HP engine? It would be interesting to know.
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Frank. Thanks for the tip on the picture posting. When I get a chance, I'll go through the dyno computer and dig up the peak HP and rpm numbers.
tubman. I looked up the 150 HP Flattie and it was 276 cubic inches. It actually made just a bit more than 150 HP. Here are the pictures of the piston and combustion chambers in the 200+HP Flat head. Ted Eaton. |
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Now that I can now post pictures, here's a shot of the 150 HP Flathead when it was on the dyno. Ted Eaton.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Thank you for the information and pictures. Very nice! Looks like some serious work on the 200 HP unit with the pistons out of the holes and heads counterbored to suit with good quench distances. Like the relief on the piston's inlet side as well. Well done!
Terry |
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work By using a home made doming tool I put a set od 3 3/4 stroke pistons on a 4" crank. I only had to "Bore the heads" about .070" for th proper cyl tp piston clearance. Brought the CR over 9:1 and still have a good transfer area. Ya gota experiment with these little engines, that's the fun of it.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Ya' know, Ron- I wondered if maybe you had done this before at some time. Not surprising! I am sure impressed with your way of thinking.
Terry |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Thanks for filling the displacement in. May I indulge you some more and ask what a "small Isky cam" is? MAX-1? I ask you as it is quite similar to my last build.
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“I doubt that anyone has reached the 200 hp mark with a normally aspirated flathead using regular gas (91/93 oct). The reason I say this is, the ports wont pass enough air. They come close but at around 48/6000 RPM depending on displacement, the ports shut down.”
Regarding the first part of your statement, It has been done so many times, there is no way to count them. Not so much any more though because few are willing to put the kind of money into a flathead that is required for that hp. I can think of more than 40 engines I saw run in person that made over 300 hp on gas naturally aspirated. Most of them back in the 50’s. Many were driven on the street also. The street gas called “ethyl” was close to 100 octane back then but many ran “regular” on the street which was about 90. This was done simply by retarding the spark 5 degrees. Many of these engines were driven to the various tracks, both circle and drag, on gas, changed the carb tops and ran alcohol to race, changed back to gas to drive home. Regarding the second part of your statement, The ports WILL pass enough air if they are hogged out enough. This means the walls have to be a maximum of .090 ALL THE WAY THROUGH. For a stock port configuration flathead, bigger is better. Forget the fancy contours. I have built a 352 ci flathead engine, a 340 ci, and several 321 ci ones and they all made over 1 hp per ci. naturally aspirated and without chemically enhanced fuel. I might mention also that, flat top pistons with matching combustion chamber have ALWAYS shown more hp than any shape of popup pistons in a flathead engine. This was discovered in the late 40’s by 2 guys. Smokey and Speedy. This engine was first built in the mid 70's and made 328 hp on av gas. It was wet sump back then. |
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would love to know the results of the dyno work done by my Dad back in the V12 program at Duke
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work There has never been a gas burning Flathead which could make within 100 horsepower of 328 on my dyno. It is fair to say there can be significant differences from one dyno number to another and neither of them accurate except within itself. That is why I went to great lengths, in my book, to expound the fallacy of announcing horsepower numbers. The important thing when using any test device is to have repeatable results so that the value of changes can be properly evaluated. And, for that purpose most properly operated dynos can do a good job.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Pete, those are some wild numbers. and I'd like to know what was in those engines. Present day over head engines have been blessed with after market cylinder heads to increase hp and they rely on better breathing to do so. Having had several Flow benched and a Dyno, I could never figure out how to do it, still don't, stupid factor to high I guess. However, the minute you install a blower on a Flathead, it sure makes power.
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Maybe I can help a bit with some numbers. The following info is from the ride in my signature below here. Also placed 2 shots below!
My very good friend Ron House, owner of this ride, a '50 Merc convertible, recently passed away. I first met him when I belonged to the Ford/Merc club in my avatar! He was the president of the club at the time, probably around 1975? At the time we did the dyno testing back in August 2010 Ronnie hadn't recieved his tri-power setup yet from Clive at Stromberg but wanted to get the ride going. I wasn't aware who Clive was back then or that he was connected to the Stromberg carb company! So he decided to supply us with an Offenhauser 4-brl intake and a Holley 390 CFM carb for the test. The build dynoed at 154+ HP @ 4300 and 264# Torque @ 2200 at the flywheel. After having the ride and enjoying it for a couple months he finally received the intake/carb setup and had his guy install it and set it all up. Up to that point he was extremely happy with the power and couldn't believe how the ride felt? He was an excellent judge of power and although this was just his own estimate he felt as though he had picked up about another 15/20 HP from the new tri-power carb setup! Remember, this just being an estimate, if correct, this would have put him around 170/175 HP. And down the road from these gains there was still a bit more to come thanks to Clive once again. Ronnie had Clive build him another center carb, a bit larger, and Ronnie said he again felt the difference in power, although not quite the same amount, but still more. Over the years all the N/A Flatheads we've tested end up between 140 and 175 HP depending largely on the cubic-inch AND the other chosen components. I will add this, just about every one had Ross pistons with some lighter ring packs, originally 1/16"-1/16"-3/16" and now today all get the metric rings, 1.5, 1.5, and 3.0 on the oil rings! All are "moly" top rings! (Add) Ronnie couldn't praise Clive enough, they became very close over the past few years! I have all the info here on this build, every part we used and every "mod" we did! Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. Just a little side note connected to this story. This all began with another of Ronnie's friends (Ray) around mid 2009 initially asking me to build Ronnie's Flathead, I told him I just couldn't fit in any Flatheads at that time, I believed that was the end of the story at least for me doing Ronnies build! Well, low and behold I get a phone call in October 2009 from Ronnie. He was at Kennedy Airport and was coming by just to say "hello". He had just flown in from California, rented a ride at the airport, and wanted to stop by. Had no clue what was coming?? He informed me he wanted us to do the build for certain, one way or another. He explained he had flown out to another (major) builder on the west coast to see about his build, was totally "turned-off" after a rather lengthy discussion with them. He didn't really say why, only that they would never build him a Flathead, period. The rest is now history and the ride has over 40,000 miles on at this stage! Have no idea what will become of the ride now, it's all up to his family?? |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Ah yes, 'tis the season for bench racing! Let's keep it coming; NOT to put each other down, but to share ideas, compare notes! Discussions like this are educational, especially for us onlookers.
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Re: Early V8 Dyno Work Over the years I have told pretty much told what goes into one of my engines, but not everything at once.
Most people are still living in the distant past when they think about flathead engines. How many people are willing to spend 40K on an engine just to beat a buddy that spent 35K? How many people have ever seen a flathead cam with .520 lift and a max. acelleration of .013? How many have seen 2 ring gas ported flat top pistons. How about a dry sump oil system? Full radius valve seats?? Oh, did I mention injectors with 1.875 butterflies? They haven't banned titanium parts in vintage racing yet and we are hoping they don't. |
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As has long been said: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" Looks like you're willing and able to go quite fast! |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work You know when you read a thread and you realise that's just out of my league? I'm just glad to get one running at all.
Mart. |
Re: Early V8 Dyno Work All it takes to make Horespower is air, and lots of it. I guess Pete found away.
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