Engine numbers don’t match
 

Hey Guys, I know this has been hashed out before, but I’m looking at a 31 coupe to buy and I’ve noticed the engine number is from August of 29. On the drivers side A-pillar a new looking VIN tag has been attached and those numbers are from March of 1930. The car is at a dealership and I’ve only looked at pictures of it on line.. Dealership lists it as “original “. My question to you all is, does mix match numbers support an reason for a lower price? At this time I don’t know what numbers are on the title. The car is in Minnesota, I live in Indiana. I know the car would have to be checked out by local police, and if the numbers on the title don’t match the new looking VIN tag we have a problem. If the cop is smart about old cars, he could say the motor number and the VIN tag don’t match. They are asking 19K for the car, I think it’s worth 14k. Thanks, Fred

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Engine # being other than YOM is not uncommon. Doesn’t sound like your concerned with fine point judging. Would have to be pretty nice coupe to go for $19k if just a driver/fun car
Correct that engine needs to match title. Not an IN resident so not familiar with your DMV

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

I think you answered your own question Fred. Dealer prob bought it for 14k and doubt he is going to drop 5k because #s dont match. He wants to make a profit and obviously you would get a better buy if you were buying private.


with that said, you stated its a 14k car..............

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Mix and match numbers on a dealer on-line listing supports a reason to turn around and run.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Sounds like someone bought a title and a new VIN plate and stamped the numbers to match the title. The VIN plate should look like it came from the state. In California the state assigns the numbers and they don't match the typical Model A series of numbers.

Charlie Stephens

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

When I bought my car here in North Carolina, with a car already registered in the state, the DMV did not inspect the car and just transferred the ownership. The engine has a different number than on the paperwork and the VIN on the frame is hidden by the body.

When I bought my Model T in 2005 from Utah, an officer from the DMV, wearing a side arm, came out to the house to inspect the car. His concern was that it was really a 1915 car and not a hot rod and that it was not stolen. He looked at the VIN on the frame, which on that car was visible and stamped.

I may end up stamping the VIN on the frame of the Model A where it can be seen.

I really don't care that the engine is not original to the car. I know that matching numbers are important to a lot of people and command a higher price.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

The so called VIN on a Model A from the factory was the engine number and a matching number was on the frame under the body on the driver's side to the rear of the firewall. Over the years engines were changed out which meant the number on the title no longer matches the engine number. The only true way to verify is to lift the body. In CA the DMV can assign a VIN which is usually attached to the body but I did have an old MG that had a CA assigned VIN attached to the frame. Not sure about other states. A visible number stamped on the frame in front of the firewall is NOT a legal VIN even if it has correct looking stars before and after the numbers. Some sellers will purchase a so called VIN plate and attach it to the body that matches whatever number is on the title. Purchasing a Model A in which the VIN on the title doesn't match the engine number and based only on a non state issued "VIN" plate and not the original stamped number on the frame under the body is looking for trouble. IMO.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

A "dealer" may not know anything about the car they are selling. Some dealers do, but most don't. They are in it for the money and that is all. So it is up to you to inspect and verify.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Texas DMV allows a pencil rubbing of the frame number for title ownership transfer. Every state has different regulations. I would only trust a state issued ID tag for title/registration purposes. Home brewed tags are not accepted by most state DMVs. Model A and T cars are too well known to take a chance on a state to state transfer. Ford didn't even start stamping frames till 1926 or so but the engine change problem was likely why the started to do so.

I would want to see the frame number if an engine number doesn't match the title. $14 K doesn't even seem a good enough price to take the chance. Dealers can have a lot of wiggle room but only in the state they do business in.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

I would not think a swapped motor (i.e. numbers not matching the car) would be that big of a deal, however a 'fresh' looking v.i.n. affixed to the car may be cause for hesitation. I would clarify that the vin on the car and the title match and question why the vin looks fresh. I know some states will assign a new vin but it usually is pretty obvious. I would have a long conversation with the dealer and for regarding. There are other Model A's for sale, maybe even one that fits your criteria. Might be a good excuse to look around a bit.

I am somewhat surprised at what some states do to register a car. In MD (which seems to be hard to do anything) you take a title to the dmv, sign the back and they issue a new one in your name. No inspections, no police, nothing. BUT you do need a TITLE to transfer.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Texas DMV allows a pencil rubbing of the frame number for title ownership transfer


you mean a piece of oak and a HF stamp set?

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Car dealer / car is original….. ya think they would lie to you?

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

In SC I was able to get a valid VIN number that is attached to the firewall on a speedster built up of parts starting with a model A frame. Starting with the local DMV I was told to go to the state for a VIN application. I applied for a VIN number using "reconstructed" vehicle. The other choice was "homebuilt" which would be a kit car, this not being the case. I was issued a VIN number and had a trophy shop make a placard with that number. A VIN inspector came to my home and verified that the number attached to the firewall matched the issued VIN number. From there on title and registration were standard procedure. Why all this? No more looking all over the car/engine or wherever for a serial number. The VIN number trumps all other numbers whether on the engine or block or if they match or not. No definition on what reconstructed consists of and the VIN inspector was only interested in the number on the fire wall and did not even look at the rest of the car. BTW, the car was built up on a 31 frame so it is registered as a 1931 model A Ford.

John

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Is this the car? That thing looks like a real money pit.
https://www.uniqueclassiccars.com/ve...mbleseat-coupe

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

I was new to Texas when I first read that requirement and that has been quite a number of years ago. Now a person has to have a car verified at a certified state inspection station. It has to pass inspection and the number has to be on the car in one of two locations in their manual. I think they will still accept a pencil rubbing for a number that can't readily be seen but I've not had to worry about it yet. If they made a person lift the body then I sure wouldn't want to be caught in a lie.

Way back when I purchased my first in TX model A, they had no state inspection and as long as the vehicle already had a TX title then they just issued a new title in my name. They only looked at out of state vehicles and TX DPS officer had to look at the VIN. This is what they did with my other daily driver vehicles when I moved down here.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

roto,
only been about 4 yrs since TX required a vin check. before that they took any title or reg from any state and put it right through.


I know this from selling quite a few pinks in your part of the country...... it was very easy, though its not terrible now.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

I will agree to disagree. I've brought in vehicles from several states since 1985 and they always wanted the title application and a verification by state inspectors. Certified inspection stations are not run by the state government since they are designated by the state and follow the regulations set forth by the state. Many are regular Mom and Pop places that can interpret what they see within the regulations set forth. We also have non-state operated title companies that are only required to look at the paperwork to decide whether to issue a registration and submit the information to the state for issuance of title. Rules did change a bit some years back but a lot of that deals with sales tax.Texas has no state income tax so they are picky about sales tax for that reason. We don't use pinks here.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Sorry for the hijack, but if this is the car in question, no offense but that ones good for 10k at best! Top side doesnt look too bad but there is a lot of rust and rusted out parts underneath. 19k should get you a car with at the least nice paint.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

Agree with 77Birdman above.

This looks like the typical "classic" dealer offering.
Shiny paint, nice upholstery and little to no restoration on the mechanicals.

The swiss cheese under the rumble floor and blisters under the running boards and splashes confirm this, as well as the rough engine compartment.

Giant red flags.
Anticipate spending $7-8000 on mechanicals + whaterver body work is needed.
Serial number becomes a moot point.

Re: Engine numbers don’t match
 

I would walk away from this one. Pictures normally can make a car look better than it really is. If that is true with this Model A? You might have your work cutout for you.

Good luck!