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-   -   UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45249)

TinCup 08-18-2011 05:41 PM

UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

1 Attachment(s)
UPDATE*******************************
I spent the week going thru several items trying to nail down my hot temps. I spent some time talking to Gary at Bergs and Lee at Brassworks radiators. Both recommended running distilled water and a rust inhibitor vs my standard 50-50 mix. So I reset the point gap which was around 19 back to 20, retimed and drained the antifreeze mix and filled it with just water and water wetter. Took it out this morning with temps in the high 70's and drove about 10 miles at 40-45 mph. Temps stayed below 180. Driving back later in the day with temps around 95 car temps jumped to 180 quickly and settled in around the 195 mark. I installed a new SW temp gauge that I had calibrated using a candy thermometer so I could trust the readings. The motormeter never got to the bottom line of what it calls summer operating temp. This is consistent with what it was doing with my 50-50 mix. So cool weather no problems, hot weather I am really pushing the outside of the envelope. Neither Bergs or Brassworks would say whether a 10 fin or a 3 core radiatior would help my situation.
The pic below is a little blurry but you can see I am doing about 40 mph and temps are between 190-200



I had my radiator overflow tube repaired 6 years ago the shop told me that alot of the fins were separated and that it needed to be rodded out. While it ran a little warm it never got over 190. Took a nice long trip a couple of weeks ago and running between 45-50mph the temps jumped up well over 220. When I backed the speeds off it cooled down. Remembering what the shop said I replaced the radiator with a new 8fin Brassworks rad. Took it out today and same result. The only change to this motor is the HC head I installed early in the spring.

I searched all through the forum and went through the culprits. Checked timing, good flow at the top of the radiator. When I pulled into the drive way the temp gauge showed 200 and the motometer was at the top of the normal driving limit line. Using infrared themometer the top of the radiator tank was 220 and the bottom of the radiator was 150-160.

Running a mix of 50/50.

Bill Lee/Virginia 08-18-2011 05:49 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

I had the same issue when I installed a 6 to 1 Winfield cylinder head. I found that my timing was too retarded for the high compression head. I avanced the timing to 5 degrees and my engine cooled back to nornal even during these hot 100 F temperature days. Luck.

Bill Lee/Virginia Peninsula

gweilbaker 08-18-2011 05:59 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

Run it at night and look at the exhaust manifold, if it's glowing red either you're running lean or too retarded.

GW

Tom Endy 08-18-2011 06:02 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

I am of the opinion that the number of rows of tubes in the radiator core is more important than the fins per inch specification. I bought a radiator a few years ago from one of the more popular radiator vendors that was specified at 10 fins per inch. I had the same problem you are describing. Around town it was fine. Climbing a grade or out in the desert it boiled over.

I thought the tubes may have become plugged from rust in the engine. I took the radiator to a radiator shop to have it rodded out. When they pulled the tanks off the tubes were not plugged, but there was only two rows of tubes.

I had the core replaced with a four row core and now the temp gauge stays locked on 160 (the thermostat setting) no matter where I travel.

I think the best solution to Model A radiators is to take an original radiator to a shop that speaks Model A and have them install a four row core.

Tom Endy

Fred 08-18-2011 06:22 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

You pay for what you get, BERGS & NO PROBLEMS...

Purdy Swoft 08-18-2011 06:52 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

A high compression head should make it run cooler.

Joop 08-18-2011 06:59 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

If you time it correct.

Purdy Swoft 08-18-2011 07:25 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

Usually the timing IS the problem. I think trying to time by the points and the fact that you've really got to know on which side that the backlash has to be on causes the problem.

Paul from Maine 08-18-2011 08:15 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

Could be a blown head gasket or lots of crud and rust in the water jackets if it is not the timing. Last time I had the head off my motor I pulled a coffee cup full of rust out of the water jackets with a magnet on a telescopic rod. A year later I had the engine rebuilt and the rebuilder told me the rear water jackets were still full of crud when he disassembled the motor. Even so, I had not had any cooling problems with my Brassworks radiator. In fact I had to put a thermostat in the upper hose to get the temp above 135 despite all the crud in my water jackets. If the upper part of the radiator is 220 and the bottom 150, then the radiator is doing its job. It must be something besides the radiator.

Purdy Swoft 08-18-2011 08:43 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

I really think that it doesn't need to be 220 or 190 degrees anywhere for any length of time. could be head gasket, cracked head, or block. It could be caused by improper use of the spark lever. I hear a lot of guys saying that they are driving with the spark lever half way up the quadrant. I'm not trying to make anybody mad or get in an arguement but running with the spark that far retarded is just not right. It could be caused by running too lean. maybe a vacume leak or could it be the gav setting?

TinCup 08-18-2011 09:14 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

One of the hard things to nail down is that before we did the valve job and added the HC head 40MPH was the top of the scale.

I spoke to a couple of club guys tonight at dinner and they echoed a lot of what I am hearing here. We are going to go through the list tomorrow and see if we can identify the issue. After warm up I usually close the GAV and at speed I run with the advance half way down.

TinCup 08-18-2011 09:29 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

Tom,
If the radiator had not been given to me I would had gone a different direction. I was looking at a 3 row berg. In installing the 2 row their isn't very much clearance I can't imagine how tight it would be with a 4 row.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Endy (Post 258682)
I am of the opinion that the number of rows of tubes in the radiator core is more important than the fins per inch specification. I bought a radiator a few years ago from one of the more popular radiator vendors that was specified at 10 fins per inch. I had the same problem you are describing. Around town it was fine. Climbing a grade or out in the desert it boiled over.

I thought the tubes may have become plugged from rust in the engine. I took the radiator to a radiator shop to have it rodded out. When they pulled the tanks off the tubes were not plugged, but there was only two rows of tubes.

I had the core replaced with a four row core and now the temp gauge stays locked on 160 (the thermostat setting) no matter where I travel.

I think the best solution to Model A radiators is to take an original radiator to a shop that speaks Model A and have them install a four row core.

Tom Endy


TinCup 08-18-2011 09:30 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

30degress of dwell at 2000rpm. About 5degrees retarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joop (Post 258708)
If you time it correct.


sonny30coupe 08-18-2011 09:57 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

I too was wondering if I would have any room for a 4 row. It is pretty close under that hood now.

Jim/GA 08-18-2011 11:37 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinCup (Post 258780)
30degress of dwell at 2000rpm. About 5degrees retarded.

Now that you have given us some hard facts, I would say your point gap is too wide and your timing is retarded, even for a HC head.

People don't normally set their points on an A by dwell. But if I did, I would set it closer to 45 degrees, not 30. 30* is typical for an 8-cyl engine. Better to set by feeler gauge thickness of .017" to .020". After you do that, just for yucks, you could read out what the dwell is (for future reference). Dwell should not vary with RPM; if it does, you have a problem with your distributor. Always set point gap or dwell before timing.

Second, Henry timed these engines at TDC at the timing mark with the lever fully up. Full advance on the lever was 40 crank degrees of advance. You are starting out at -5 degrees and only advancing the lever 1/2 way, or 20 degrees, so your final advance is only ~15* BTDC. That is not enough. You should shoot for closer to 30*, which means if you are starting at 5* retarded, you need to advance the lever almost the full swing. Moving the lever all the way to the bottom of the quadrant would result in final timing of ~35* BTDC (perhaps a bit too much for the HC head, but try it and see what your temperature does -- you can always back it off a bit with the lever).

If you can tell us you are at 5 deg. retarded initially, then that means you have a timing light and scale on the engine. Good. Get the dwell set closer to 45* first, and then set the initial timing to where you want it. (Why not TDC, like Henry did?) Anyway, after doing that, start engine and see where you have to put the timing lever to get 30* of advance. That's where you want to run with it.

Mike V. Florida 08-19-2011 12:13 AM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinCup (Post 258673)
The only change to this motor is the HC head I installed early in the spring. .

Based of this add my name to the timing problem camp.

Due to greater effeciency in the burning of the fuel an HC head actually runs cooler than a stock head.

When someone tells me that the over heating started after replacing a head the first thing that pops into my head is timing, next is that the use of the timing lever is different with the HC head as opposed to a stock head. (You don't lower the lever as much). After those two things I suggest a gasket problem.

TinCup 08-19-2011 09:53 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

UPDATE!
First things first.
New Brassworks 8fin 2 core radiator.
Temps for today in OKC 105.
We went through the points and the timing. Points at .19 timing was a little advanced at 10 degrees. Reset to -5 fully retarded 35 fully advanced. Drove about 4 miles at 40-45mph temp stayed just south of the 190 mark on my temp gauge. As soon as I pulled into my driveway and shut if off it jumped passed 220. Nothing out the overflow. No bubbles in the top tank to indicate blown head gasket or vapor out the exhaust. With these temps can I keep it cool or am I fighting a losing battle.

Mike V. Florida 08-19-2011 10:03 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

My car temp also jumps up when I shut her down. No cooling air through the radiator so one would think the temp would rise.

Jim/GA 08-19-2011 10:43 PM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

Put the 50/50 mix in some empty jugs for use in the winter and switch to pure water with a couple of cans of anti-rust.

The specific heat of water is 25% greater than that of 50-50 antifreeze. For the same heat output from the engine, the water temperature increase will be 20% less. That's about the best you are going to do.

Tom Wesenberg 08-20-2011 05:04 AM

Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinCup (Post 259291)
UPDATE!
First things first.
New Brassworks 8fin 2 core radiator.
Temps for today in OKC 105.
We went through the points and the timing. Points at .19 timing was a little advanced at 10 degrees. Reset to -5 fully retarded 35 fully advanced. Drove about 4 miles at 40-45mph temp stayed just south of the 190 mark on my temp gauge. As soon as I pulled into my driveway and shut if off it jumped passed 220. Nothing out the overflow. No bubbles in the top tank to indicate blown head gasket or vapor out the exhaust. With these temps can I keep it cool or am I fighting a losing battle.

That sounds about right to me, and I don't see anything that needs to be fixed. Antifreeze will raise the boiling point of the coolant.


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