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-   -   sleeved wheel cylinders (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264911)

Alaska Jim 06-14-2019 09:23 PM

sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Hello everyone. While this question is not early V8 specific, I feel that it could apply , so I will pose the following question Yesterday, while bleeding the front brakes ( 1940 ford ) on a '29 Roadster ( customer car ) we were "pumping " up the pedal to bleed the brakes, and after getting some pedal, pumped the pedal to bleed once more to verify there was no more air when suddenly there was a pop noise, and the pedal went to the floor, brake fluid all over the floor. found the wheel to be locked up. ( shoes in a bind and applied tight against the drum ). finally got the thing apart, and at first thought the front piston had some how come out of the wheel cylinder. Then we suddenly realized that the stainless sleeve in the wheel cyl. had come loose and blew out the end of the wheel cyl.. I was obvious that the sleeve had not been pinned , and/ or did not have enough press to keep it in place. we now do not trust the cylinder on the other side, and are going to replace both of them. so has this ever happened to anyone else? we are just glad it happened in the shop, and not on the road. we would like to hear others experiences, and/or opinions. Thanks,--- Jim

J Franklin 06-15-2019 12:50 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

It would be great if you had photos because it is hard to believe a sleeve open on both ends could move unless it was a sloppy fit.

flatheadmurre 06-15-2019 01:00 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Itīs only the split size cylinders that see any force on the liners...

Alaska Jim 06-15-2019 02:51 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Sorry I was not clear. It was only the front ( the large piston sleeve ) that popped out. I will check with my brother, I am pretty sure he took a few pix. with his phone to sent to the vendor. The rear smaller piston sleeve seems to be intact. If it makes any difference it was the left ( driver ) side front wheel cylinder. we were just wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem, is why I started this thread. Thanks for all your comments.-- Jim

36rgtop 06-15-2019 09:25 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Just a thought, if somehow the piston became seized to the liner it could force the liner out.

flatrod 06-15-2019 10:26 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

1 Attachment(s)
Picture of said wheel cyl. Because its two different sizes fluid can get between the two sleeves. Didn't take a lot of pedal for it to pop out.

J Franklin 06-15-2019 11:03 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36rgtop (Post 1767909)
Just a thought, if somehow the piston became seized to the liner it could force the liner out.

I bet that is the answer if it was sleeved tightly.

RalphM 06-15-2019 12:23 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

That is pretty scary! And just completely blew my faith in ever sleeving a cylinder.

john in illinois 06-15-2019 01:05 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

I looked into sleeving and the biggest complaint was fluid getting under the sleeve at the bleeder port. the cylinder would leek around the sleeve.

This would seem to support the idea of fluid under the edge of the large sleeve
pushing it out.

John

cas3 06-15-2019 06:32 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

not me, but some stories on the hamb speak of the sleeved cylinders from speedway leaking when new

aussie merc 06-15-2019 06:59 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

how long since they where sleeved never seen it in 45 years might be time to scream warranty 1st guess is they wern't fitted correctly

flatrod 06-15-2019 10:03 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

They are new cylinders, nothing stuck or binding, just looks like a case of not enough press. I was surprised to see they were sleeved. Thinking about it I don't see a problem with a straight through sleeve, other then leaking around the ports. But those with two stepped sleeves allows fluid to push on the sleeves. With not enough press either or both can be pushed out. I'm just glad it did it in the shop and not on the road. They are being sent back for a refund.

rich b 06-16-2019 07:30 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatrod (Post 1768114)
They are new cylinders, nothing stuck or binding, just looks like a case of not enough press. I was surprised to see they were sleeved. Thinking about it I don't see a problem with a straight through sleeve, other then leaking around the ports. But those with two stepped sleeves allows fluid to push on the sleeves. With not enough press either or both can be pushed out. I'm just glad it did it in the shop and not on the road. They are being sent back for a refund.

Where were they sourced and were they not listed as sleeved cylinders?

flatrod 06-16-2019 09:35 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Came from Speedway and new no mention of being sleeved.

flatheadmurre 06-16-2019 11:09 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

They state that their new cylinders and master cylinders are stainless sleeved...
And since this is a safety part i hope they take this failure seriously and check if itīs a design or manufacturing problem...

Mart 06-16-2019 01:32 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

I've felt uneasy about people using sleeved cylinders ever since I've heard of the concept. I'm now even more sceptical. I can see why the idea might be considered when the piece is unobtainable, but why use a sleeved cylinder when perfectly good conventional cylinders are available??

Shaking my head here.

This is a safety critical part. There's nothing more safety critical than brakes.

Mart.

Alaska Jim 06-16-2019 02:42 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

I agree with Mart. In fact I just ordered a new Master cylinder for my '51 Merc. (different vendor ). I ask if it was sleeved, I was told it was not, we will see. I see no reason to sleeve a new master cylinder, or wheel cylinder. As far as the wheel cylinders we used , that the sleeve popped out of, they were ordered over the phone, the catalog was not referenced, and the vendor on the phone did not offer any information to the fact that a new wheel cylinder was sleeved, and being a new cylinder, we did not expect it to be sleeved. -- Jim

Kurt in NJ 06-16-2019 03:49 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

What does it look like inside--- I wonder if the sleeve is a fix for bleeder hole position drilled wrong

flatrod 06-17-2019 12:17 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Fill and bleeder holes were drill after the sleeve was installed, at least that is what it looked like. The inside didn't look anything was going to be a problem, smooth bore, good finish, piston fit well, just not enough press.

Frank Miller 06-17-2019 06:39 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaska Jim (Post 1768251)
I agree with Mart. In fact I just ordered a new Master cylinder for my '51 Merc. (different vendor ). I ask if it was sleeved, I was told it was not, we will see. I see no reason to sleeve a new master cylinder, or wheel cylinder. As far as the wheel cylinders we used , that the sleeve popped out of, they were ordered over the phone, the catalog was not referenced, and the vendor on the phone did not offer any information to the fact that a new wheel cylinder was sleeved, and being a new cylinder, we did not expect it to be sleeved. -- Jim

If they advertise them as stainless steel then they may just mean the bore being stainless to prevent rust from seizing the cylinder. This is an interesting thread due to the safety factor and that many of us have sleeved cylinders to save them. The fact that this is new may give us something to look for.
If it was a loose fit then you certainly would have fluid leaking behind the sleeve. I thought of machining a groove with a lock ring to prevent this but a properly pressed in sleeve should not have this problem. At least I would not think it would.

38bill 06-17-2019 09:37 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Speedway lists them as: " All new castings with corrosion resistant SS sleeves.....".

flatrod 06-17-2019 10:01 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

[QUOTE=Frank Miller;1768423 If it was a loose fit then you certainly would have fluid leaking behind the sleeve. I thought of machining a groove with a lock ring to prevent this but a properly pressed in sleeve should not have this problem. At least I would not think it would.[/QUOTE]

Both sides showed signs of leakage on the small side of the wheel cyl. Its the large side that blew out on the left side of the car. I too thought about adding some kind of locking ring, but think best to just go with cyl that are not sleeved.

john in illinois 06-17-2019 11:29 AM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

Barnfind08 on this forum has NOS cylinders.


John

Tony, NY 06-17-2019 12:50 PM

Re: sleeved wheel cylinders
 

If you want to try and save them, there are retaining compounds made by Loctite that work on interference and slip fits.
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/...compounds.html


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