Babbitt in the Oil
 

I went to change the oil in my truck today, and lo and behold there are chunks of shiny metal in the oil plug. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that isn't good. I haven't noticed a knock or anything, but have been going through oil at an excessive rate recently. What's next? Drop the pan, find the damage, and get the engine rebuilt?

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Possibly, if the metal is kinda a dullish silver it is babbit, if not, maybe something else, but pulling the pan IS the next step.

Pictures can tell a thousand tales.

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Better hurry! Aug 9th is coming up!

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Babbitt isn't very shiny... but you can lose some and not klunk. How long has it been since you had the pan off to take a look?

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Is it burning oil or leaking? Maybe lost a bit of the thrust bearing?

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Blip the throttle a couple times or push the clutch in, while watching the crank pulley very carefully. If you can see the crank pulley move forward at all, that would indicate your thrust bearing surface has too much clearance. I forget the spec, but I think it's about 0.006". It's about impossible to see that movement, but something greater than that is easily seen. You can confirm with a dial indicator. Good luck.

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

It does leak oil -- sort of intermittently. Sometimes you lose an excessive amount of oil very quickly (a quart in 200 miles), other times there isn't a noticeable loss in the same mileage.

I have never had the pan off... I guess this afternoon is a good time to start.

A few pictures...

https://i.imgur.com/gcAWpmMl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DIGMlWUl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8CKWvrTl.jpg

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Hi Ian,

Per your: "I have never had the pan off... I guess this afternoon is a good time to start."

Metal in a Model A oil pan is "always" a most fortunate clue to try to investigate further ..... your removing the oil pan is a very wise decision.

It is always most educational to read about what Model A investigators find.

Please follow up, report your findings, and become a most wonderful Model A engine educator.

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Alrighty,

So I dropped the pan this afternoon, this is what I found in the bottom of the pan. I'm going to profess my ignorance... what are these things? Are they just shims? What's the next step? I've got the Les Andrews book, but I don't know what these are called and what their purpose is. There were no other indications of damage, other than that these guys were all laying on the bottom of the oil pan. I guess it wasn't babbitt that I was seeing, just the solder that was holding these guys together?

https://i.imgur.com/5Ms9xSIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wv1dnGnl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kTJaM4Xl.jpg

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Looks like some kind of thrust surface someone added on that main journal. It doesn't look right, there might be a similar set up on the rear main also, oil loss. If I saw that I'd pull the engine. Good luck

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

My thoughts too. Any engine rebuilding workshop should be able the add a little babbit in the right place to take up end play in the crankshaft. Get rid of those shims!

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Hi Ian,

Again, "always" thoroughly investigate something that appears suspicious with a Model A.

Many experienced Model A guys would never .... ever ... underestimate what people have tried .... and will try .... with a Model A Ford ..... too many stories to tell.

If anyone attempted to write a book entitled ...... "Model A Modifications, Then & Now", ........ just when the author thinks the very last Model A Chapter has been written ....... Guess what?

Thanks for posting pictures of what you found.

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

GOOD GRIEF !!! I have never ever seen that fix before . It was done to cure excessive crank end float . I am amazed that it worked for a while as the crank and bearing cap are not machined in way of the shim unless a machine shop did it with the crank out . You can buy a bronze replacement thrust washer most parts houses sell them but it is a crank out job . Go to Vince Falters "Model A Garage" site it shows how it goes .

John in sunny morning Suffolk County England .

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

I've rode with people that ride the clutch at red lights.
This will wear the thrust babbit much more than necessary.

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

I think we have all been there and then there are those who use the clutch to stop the car rolling backwards when waiting on an incline. I drew one guy's attention to what he was doing but all I got was a blank, confused look. Clearly, there was no comprehension. Some people should only drive an automatic!:eek:

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Just out of curiosity, how much foreward/ backward movement is there on the crankshaft?

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

Hey Chuck,

How do I measure that? I just went out and pushed on the pulley and there was no perceptible movement. Do you you really have to shove on it to get it to get movement? I see the Les Andrews book recommends no more than 0.003 end play.

Based on the fragments, I believe there were 4 of these shims -- three of which have thrown and one that is still in there. They appear to be 0.01 inches thick. I've cleaned the first three out of the oil pan. Obviously I should remove the last one. If I can then check the end play in the crank shaft am I okay? Are there other things I should check, or should I just definitely get the engine rebuilt?

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

You could put a dial indicator down there on a magnetic mount then use a small bar or large screwdriver to push/pull the crank. .003 is not very much, if it moves a discernible amount, you can bet it's more than that. I'm beginning to not like the "if there's anything wrong at all" with the motor, rebuild the whole thing. As much as you drive your pickup it must run pretty good? I'm sure there are tons of As running around with too much wear in the thrust bearing that run fine but leak too much oil, what can you live with?

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

And yet the model A powered Pietenpol homebuilt plane from the '30's just bolted the prop to the crankshaft and used the stock Babbitt to handle the constant thrust! Just like sitting at a stoplight with the clutch pedal down all day!

Re: Babbitt in the Oil
 

You can roughly check end float by using a light crowbar to pry the crank ahead and astern off the cross member . You will not need much force not enough to damage the pulley by a long way . I have two cars with about 20 thou end float but no rear main leak and one with virtually no end float but looses about a pint out of the rear main every two or three hundred miles so just a worn rear main. So you can have end float way past spec and still live with it if the rear main leak is not too severe . Just park on gravel and avoid your best buddies concrete driveway !!!

John in sunny Suffolk County England .