Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Help me from doing anything drastic.

I have had head seepage problems in the past (my own fault), but had finally thought I had it beat. I bought the BEST brand composite head, new high quality head studs, and meticulously followed the Brufield guide to torque the head to 64ftlb (due to my 7:1 lion head.)

Everything seemed perfect, until I added some liquid sealant for a radiator leak (which fixed it). Now, I’m not sure if this leak began after that, or I just noticed after adding the sealant, because it caused a highly visible stain, but now I have the leak seen in the attached image. It is the rear passenger corner of the head.

It doesn’t seep constantly, but only seems to appear after putting the engine under high load. I’m assuming the high compression under load is pushing the head off the gasket.

I’m about to loose my mind, and just torque the nuts to 70ftlbs. The idea of changing the gasket again just has me SO worn out (I’ve done it a half dozen times, already)

Is this leak something I should just ignore? It doesn’t seem to be getting into the combustion chamber (yet.) Talk me off this ledge!

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Heaven-help-me, I may put in a V8....

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Are the head and block flat? how many re-torques have you done?

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

As flat as can be measured. The block was rebuilt by Antique Engines, and the head was machined before install.

Retorqued periodically (I would say twice after the initial install which included, I think , three retorques).

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

I'm having the same problem. It sort of has small spits and the water level doesn't drop much to speak of after a 15 mile drive. I can live with that, but I don't want a major blowout 50 miles from home.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

time to trade that A in for another A!

yes Im kidding.

maybe run it a little and see if it seats. dont think over torquing is the answer though.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

I also say run it. What sealer did you use? I'd also call AER and pick Rich's brain.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Try a copper head gasket,spray paint it prior to install.Do not overtorque it can distort the deck.Run a cathode (waste metal) if your head is aluminum.If the deck is pitted in the leak area I've had luck filling the pits with quality RTV,a very light smear..compression is not the issue.Resist the desire to use stop leak,


https://i.imgur.com/WC0CI1h.jpg?1

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Have you checked the torque after noticing the seepage?

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Is the seepage acceptable: Well, not for me! If you are blowing some coolant by when under higher loads, I think it is only a matter of time before the gasket will fail.

I don't suggest torque any higher than your 64ftlbs. I never go over 60ftlbs unless I know the threads in the block are very good. With higher compression heads, I have noticed from the dyno runs I put new engines through, seepage from the composite gaskets is common until a couple heat cycles. I have found that if I use clear water for the first 4-5 heat cycles and then clear water for 500 to 1000 miles of operation the gasket will seal very well. If antifreeze is used during the setting of the gasket, and it seeps, it will never seal and may weep when put under heavy load. Just my experience. The antifreeze inhibits the bonding of the gasket to the clean metal surfaces.

Comment: I have driven a Lion 111 head shaved .074" to provide about 7.5:1 compression about 20,000 miles. With a higher compression head (your Lion 7:1), it is very important to avoid lugging the engine. With all that extra power you will likely be able to pull that long hill without shifting to a lower gear but the head gasket is taking a beating while climbing that hill. A combination of the extra load and higher temp will eventually cause failure. I know it will for me. I carry two spare head gaskets while on any road trips over 6,000 miles.

Another issue you may be having and not know it is the tendency for a higher compression head to be sensitive to pre-ignition and too much spark advance. Both of these conditions will shorten your head gaskets life along with the bearings of the motor. On the (4) Lion Speed Head 111's I have installed for myself and customers, I relieved the sharp edges within the combustion chambers by hand with emery cloth. The first head I installed without modification had problems with pre-ignition when pushed hard. The issue in all of the heads was eliminated after creating a small radius on the edges. On my own modified Lion head, I also undercut the chamber wall surrounding the intakes to increase flow as you will see in the photo below.
Second photo: Lion Speed Head III on the dyno
Third photo: New test/break-in stand
Good Day!

www.durableperformance.net

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

“ I have found that if I use clear water for the first 4-5 heat cycles and then clear water for 500 to 1000 miles of operation”

Dave, did you mean clear water both places? I saw this advice earlier from you and followed it, so I am looking forward to the seepage decreasing. I did put in water wetter, though.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

posted to wrong site

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Running a fixed manual timed distributor with a performance head is asking for trouble.Raising volumetric efficiency through compression and increased valve size wont provide full benefit without increasing fuel.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Bruce!, Yes...clear water.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Thanks for all the responses.

I changed the head gasket to a “Best” brand copper gasket. Followed Brumfield guide (again), and even slathered the gasket with grease. So-far-so-good. I am using straight water for now.

I believe Dave in MN nailed it, tho. I admit I do lug the engine. I don’t live in a hilly area (Chicago), but I daily my A, and our heavy traffic creates moments where it is unavoidable to lug the engine almost every trip. I theorize that the cylinder pressure experienced with my combination head/timing/etc, is so much higher than the A was ever designed to contain that I am pushing the head off the deck enough to leak coolant. I don’t believe this is avoidable with my current set-up. Hear gasket choice is irrelevant.

Also, I did discover that I was leaking coolant into cylinder 1, and 2 during this period.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Dave, do you also suggest clear water on a non high compression head when installing a new gasket?

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

If the head was surfaced PROPERLY and the block was surfaced PROPERLY, and, if you use a copper head gasket that has been checked to see that it does NOT hang over the edge of the combustion chamber anywhere, and, you spray the gasket with ALUMINUM paint both sides and install within 5 minutes, and, you use studs with clean, no burr threads that have been lubed with an approved thread lube such as the ARP stuff or hypoid gear lube, and, torqued to 65 over enough running cycles so you can't improve any more, THEN, you won't have any problems.

For one season one of my engines, a FLATHEAD model B, ran at the vintage drags on 50% nitro. 12 to 1 compression. Never blew a head gasket.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

I suggest using no antifreeze while seating the "Best" brand composition gasket. The gasket may weep a bit until it goes through a few heat/cool cycles. Yes, the same for a non high compression head when using this gasket. I also suggest this procedure for the silicone ringed gasket (referred to as "Premium Head Gasket" in the Snyder's catalog).
Good Day!

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Some comments and observations:

Composite head gaskets don't work in model A/B flathead race engines so it is not a reliable thing to put in a street engine.

Just because you have a shop rebuild your engine doesn't mean they surfaced the block and even though many shops have excellent reputations, not all surface jobs are flat.

If an engine is assembled right, you can put straight alcohol in the radiator and the system won't leak, seep, weep, or ooze. If it seeps with ANYTHING in it, something wasn't done right.

The compression ratio of a head does not determine what torque should be applied to it when installing. Head manufacturers have determined by engineering design and testing what torque and the process to get it that will work indefinitely. If you don't adhere to this, the warranty is void as it should be.

If a head manufacturer says to torque to a given value and your block threads start pulling out at that value, the logical thing is to FIX THE BLOCK, not back off on the torque.

As a side note, on ANY engine I build, I check each individual stud hole at 100 ft. lb. with a 3 inch diameter sleeve. If it won't take that I fix it with a plug. NO Helicoils or Timeserts. Their OD threads do not go deep enough in many cases to remove all of the rotten material.

If you cut corners, for ANY reason, on even a stock rebuild, you will be doing the job over.

Oh, and I did not say they ran 65 lb. on the nitro engine.

Re: Is this head gasket seepage acceptable?
 

Pete could you expand on what you do when fixing one with a plug?
Thanks
Dave