New block
 

I just got an 8BA engine in that I plan on using the block for designing a new 8BA block. I need to tear it apart and then I can begin modeling up a new one with whatever improvements people can come up with. Any positive input will be appreciated.

I have several people already interested in these.

Tod

Re: New block
 

Cool where ya get it

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Good luck, been tried several times before!

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A junkyard.

Tod

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Where in logansport

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Tod,

I wonder if there would be more of a market for the pre 1948 24 stud blocks? I believe that they are shorter and a better fit for the early cars. I am just an observer and not a customer for either.

Charlie Stephens

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It seems that the old blocks had a tendency to crack. If you could eliminate that tendency, it would be great. I assume a design flaw in the original block, but what do I know?

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Thicker decks, stronger main bearing web area, move end exhaust ports out and enlarge.
Hope you have deep pockets.

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If you really want to reproduce this block, I suggest you talk to JWL and Ray Fedrosky. I also believe the block must be capable of receiving ALL fors original pieces parts.
Good luck

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Go man Go!
Flatheads Forever!
put an extra hole in the rear oil port to make the full flow oiling option easier, and thread ithe passage for a plug. I think a lot of the Canadian motors were done that way.

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Is there no need for one?

Tod

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I like those ideas, but I want it to accept stock parts. I could always make alternate versions for the guys that want 8 exhaust ports and a couple of other non-stock ideas.

Why would I need deep pockets? This is far from my first block project.

Tod

Re: New block
 

Don't think it is a question of need, it is a question of cost. The price would be way beyond the means of almost any interested buyer and the market very limited. About the only market would be Hot Rodders, competition bodies would not allow it and it is not original for the restoration folks.

To cast a block out of cast iron would be very difficult, developing the cores would be very difficult, on and on. The machine work along would be a major cost factor. I'm all for it if it could be done.

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So, this will be more difficult than anything else I've ever done? How much would it cost me to machine a block on one of my Horizontal CNC machines? More than the FE blocks I have done, or Clevelands, or Model A blocks?

Tod

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Yes, LOL. The flathead is a totally different animal. What are the foundry estimates? And who is building the core boxes? I have foundry experience and core design and manufacturing experience and know the cost involved. How many hours is involved in the machine work on say an FE block?

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Tod, I realize you asked for suggested improvements, but for those of us that have not built a block, can you walk us through how you do it? I imagine things like lost foam and 3-d printers but would like to hear how you go about it.

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He does very impressive work. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-works.616056/

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I've seen 3D printed sand cores, I say go for it, would you cast in aluminum?, its getting harder and harder to find decent rebuildable blocks.

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Just a couple of things to shoot for.
Perhaps concentrating on the bore size limitations of the blocks as they are. Allow extra material that would permit boring to an oversize that is more desirable to some without compromising reliability.
And give attention to better intake and exhaust flow characteristics.

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I have been in the industry for 40 years and have made castings much more difficult than a V8 flathead block. I have the ability to do all the design work, tooling work, and machine work. Core boxes are not hard to make. My first trade is pattern making. Engine blocks, even this one, are far from the most difficult thing I have done.

An example of machine time would be my Model A first OP which is most of the block, takes 5 hours running at 25% rapid travel and 40% feed rates. That is on my Toyoda FH55. I can cut a Cleveland or FE block in less than 20 hours on slow feed rates. I use slow feed rates because I am usually doing other things at the same time so I don't have to be hovering over all machining that is going on.

A casting this simple would probably be around $900. My investment will be negligible, so it allows me to make a return with little in it. I am also in the process of buying more foundry equipment than I already have to expand into pouring my own blocks. Even if I didn't, I have quality foundry people to count on.

Tod

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Yep.

Tod

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That is one of the largest complaints.

Tod

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First issue improving the block is that it won´t be allowed at historic racing.
So either a high nickel std 59AB block for trying to get it aproved in classic racing...that will be a fight...
Or an all out fairly stock looking 59AB raceblock.

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I usually resist going through everything I do because I have a lot of things I do that are not common knowledge. Most things are obvious, but I do things in design that nobody else does. I will never divulge those secrets.

Basically, I design the block. Then I decide how I want to cast it. I then design the tooling to facilitate the pouring process. Sometimes changes to processes are necessary due to different foundry methods and capabilities. The auto makers do things a certain way (with billions invested) to make castings as cheap as possible and as quickly as possible. For example, Ford foundry in Cleveland was producing one V8 block every 39 seconds on one of their automatic lines. It takes me about 30 minutes to assemble one of my molds and have it ready to pour. I do not used lost foam at all in my blocks. Printed core technology is very expensive right now, but also easier in some ways. You need to know what to do and when and how it all effects end cost. If I spend more for printed cores it will save time and cost elsewhere, but is it enough? Do I eat some cost and reduce profit? It all needs accounted for.

Tod

Re: New block
 

Sounds good, if you can cut out all the outside cost and are not interested in normal commercial profit margins it might be feasible. 20 hours of machine work at normal rates would be very expensive (as you well know). I was also a pattern and core maker when younger, so I know the process, (mainly brass and aluminum, but some cast iron). Sounds like you have it under control! :)

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Tod, I would think that core design would be the area in which the greatest improvement could be attained over the original methods. Coolant flow, cavitation, hot spots, and heat transfer capability should be given a high priority.

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If you don't spend any time snooping-around over on the Model A side of the house, most of you would have no idea that Tod is not a newcomer to this "Design and build from scratch" idea. Y'all would do good to listen intently when Tod speaks about manufacturing engine blocks, etc! DD

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Never mind the stuff flying around overhead, on the railroad tracks, tractor-trailer, military tanks, and all over the world in cars. The NHRA records mean nothing, too. But after listening to all the crap where I posted this info (not just here), I'm not sure I will be messing with it. Sounds like a block is not needed and I have been misled as to a need for an 8BA block.

Tod

Re: New block
 

Well, for all the complainers and whiners that seem to have such a difficult time any more finding a usable core.......one more timely option seems to have just dried-up. This was probably the last REAL chance for a replacement flathead block to be produced and actually delivered to waiting customers. Sad!! You surely do nice work, Tod. Your credentials speak volumes. DD

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Tod, please don't let the nay sayers discourage you. I think there would be as large a market for a flathead block as there is for the Model A block and maybe larger. I think it would be imperative that the new block use original internal parts. And i think the '39 -'48 block would be a LOT more desirable. I second the recomendation to get in touch with JohnLawson. Followed your progress on the Model A block, beautiful.
Tom

Re: New block
 

I don't care about naysayers. I know what I can do. First I hear there is a need for blocks then I hear there are plenty, then I hear others are making one. I have better stuff to do than listen to nonsense. Same BS, different day.

I have Model A orders to fill. Blocks and heads. Got the new OHV about ready too, with buyers waiting.

Tod

Re: New block
 

I'm not sure what the French blocks are going for now days or if folks are even purchasing any of them or not. The 8BA block would make more sense from its adaptability standpoint. Folks would need the pickup/Mercury pressings or maybe the 51 Mercury bell housing casting to adapt them to the early configuration types. If say $2500 per copy is do-able then there may be a market.

There will come a time when the old ones get played pretty well out but that may not be in my lifetime. I've purchased stuff like that before when an effort to make things like new was needed. There would be some market but I certainly wouldn't be the one to figure how much of one there'd be.

The Aluminum large bore set up that Mark Kirby started has some promise but it seems to be in limbo right now. After the big slump in 2008 folks have been holding on to their purse strings a little tighter.

Bottom line is that all of us would like to be able to go out and buy new parts like this but how many of us actually would is the mystery.

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Hmm, I didn't think there was a whole lot of naysaying or BS. Looked like a lot of people were intrigued and some offered suggestions. Oh well.

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Hence the (not just here) notation. I took the suggestions in and tried to correct the naysaying that obviously questioned my ability to do this. I will be designing a new one with various suggestions included while talking with others, but I sure won't be in any hurry with all the conflicting talk floating around in just the first day.

Tod

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Folks that didn't know who you are before, including myself, just needed to know more. You are not the only person to bring this up in the past few years and some that have previously likely didnt have the skill sets you possess so you have to bear with us till some of us get more familiar with you and your capabilities. There are quite a few folks that frequent here that have a lot of years in the hobby and may be skeptical of folks they don't know so well yet.

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Tod's reputation did not precede him here, nor did he initially clue us in on his abilities. I think our responses were appropriate under the circumstances, and certainly considerably more polite than he may have expected.

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Here is a post that I previously made on the Kirby project, while impressive I think it's need for many proprietary parts makes it a loser, and doubtful that it will ever be seen in production.

I think the video shows why the project was aborted. In addition to Mark Kirby there was an additional brain trust involved in the project and they re-engineered the whole package. There isn't much they left on the table that is not unique to the MCFH aluminum block; d-ports, smaller, relocated head studs, roller cam and unique guides, proprietary heads needed for new stud locations, revised oil pan, water pumps, front cover, cam gears, Fluiddamper balancer and on and on.
It is for certain a complete work of engineering excellence, but all the upgrades made it out of reach ($$$$$) for the typical hobbiest and it's for that reason I think the project was shelved. Who wouldn't want one, but how many could pay for, or justify the cost?

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Tod, If you can produce a finished block for about 2k then do it. If not wait a few more years and re evaluate. No b/s needed.

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Tod
I have to say that at one time I thought the same thing, it would be just too expensive. However, the improvements in the casting and machining processes has changed my mind. Especially when a person ike yourself has the knowledge and wherewithal to attempt this at a reasonable cost. At present everything is available from the aftermarket, except the block. just think a nice 265 ci flathead with (8:1CR) with all stock parts in it except the pistons and block. Make a nice street engine for anyone.