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-   -   Snyder's head machined (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67969)

J and M Machine 04-10-2012 08:33 AM

Snyder's head machined
 

2 Attachment(s)
I just wanted to post this showing the amount removed which I mentioned the other day of.050" which you can see is right where the threads should be in regard to the nut.
The measurment I have is 2.2" .

This block was origninal unmolested when it came through the door so I know that the block height is original.

BRENT in 10-uh-C 04-10-2012 08:56 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

5 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by J and M Machine (Post 403884)
I just wanted to post this showing the amount removed which I mentioned the other day of.050" which you can see is right where the threads should be in regard to the nut.
The measurment I have is 2.2" .

This block was origninal unmolested when it came through the door so I know that the block height is original.


Well I definitely am not doubting your word and will gladly yield to your expertise but I was of the opinion that to be correct, there were to be a thread or two showing out of the top of the nuts. I have included a couple of factory photos to possibly confirm this.

Also, I thought it had been established that the correct stud boss height (dimension taken off of the original print) was to be 2.250" -and not 2.2"?

.

J and M Machine 04-10-2012 09:40 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

I believe it is one thread showing but due to the head thickness and maybe the wrong length studs supplied this is the best it gets. As long as we get full thread engagement that's what I'm aiming for.

Kohnke Rebabbitting 04-10-2012 10:01 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Mr. J & M Machine, it looks like you did it right, as it looks to me like, if they are factory photos that followed yours, look just like the pictures you posted, and in the factory pictures, some are maybe two threads high, and as you can plainly see, some are flush! Case closed, in which no body asked about in the first place!

RonC 04-10-2012 10:21 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

1 Attachment(s)
According to the Judging Standards all studs are domed, uniform in height, and extend approximately 1/32" above the nuts.

James Rogers 04-10-2012 11:55 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by J and M Machine (Post 403954)
I believe it is one thread showing but due to the head thickness and maybe the wrong length studs supplied this is the best it gets. As long as we get full thread engagement that's what I'm aiming for.

So what this shows is, the studs you use quite possibly are .050 too short, right? Not the head as previously implied.

J and M Machine 04-10-2012 11:58 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Rogers (Post 404022)
So what this shows is, the studs you use quite possibly are .050 too short, right? Not the head as previously implied.

So. What you're saying is that the Studs that Snyder's are selling are incorrect too?

George Miller 04-10-2012 01:08 PM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

My Father, and Uncles worked in the auto factory's back then. Some at Fords.
I do not think they were to worried about a couple of threads. They just wanted to get the cars out. In the cylinder business we had a standard, but would not worry about a couple of threads sticking out of the nut.
I would say Ford made the studs to the right length, and with the right length threads, screwed them in tell they stopped, and did not worry about it. That is the way we did it.

hardtimes 04-10-2012 01:35 PM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Miller (Post 404045)
My Father, and Uncles worked in the auto factory's back then. Some at Fords.
I do not think they were to worried about a couple of threads. They just wanted to get the cars out. In the cylinder business we had a standard, but would not worry about a couple of threads sticking out of the nut.
I would say Ford made the studs to the right length, and with the right length threads, screwed them in tell they stopped, and did not worry about it. That is the way we did it.

George,
Your statements make a lot of sense. And, these 'original' ford head/stud photos reveal something else also, IMO, that makes sense...i.e.- if you look closely at these photos, THE STUD TOPS (showing) are NOT THE SAME (pic 1 vs pic 3):eek:! This also somewhat confirms your input here and that (quite possibly) fords studs AND/OR install process was not always uniform,eh :confused:
Ergo, J&Ms photo/results look as good as it gets..mabe:)

James Rogers 04-10-2012 02:23 PM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by J and M Machine (Post 404024)
So. What you're saying is that the Studs that Snyder's are selling are incorrect too?

Very possibly. I have never seen a print for the originals or a set of what I could definitely state was an original set. Look at it this way, if his head is wrong what is to say the bolts are not wrong also?

Marco Tahtaras 04-10-2012 02:39 PM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardtimes (Post 404058)
George,
Your statements make a lot of sense. And, these 'original' ford head/stud photos reveal something else also, IMO, that makes sense...i.e.- if you look closely at these photos, THE STUD TOPS (showing) are NOT THE SAME (pic 1 vs pic 3):eek:! This also somewhat confirms your input here and that (quite possibly) fords studs AND/OR install process was not always uniform,eh :confused:
Ergo, J&Ms photo/results look as good as it gets..mabe:)

Pic #3 is engine A1151 built 12/2/1927 (courtesy of Brad Minners). The very early engines used head nuts which were only 3/8" tall instead of the common 7/16" tall.

Purdy Swoft 04-10-2012 05:05 PM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

It was said on an earlier thread that the chrome moly studs that Snyder sells are only 3 & 7/16 in length. this is 1/16 too short. This could be the problem if this is the studs that were used.

Fordors 04-10-2012 05:49 PM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft (Post 404155)
It was said on an earlier thread that the chrome moly studs that Snyder sells are only 3 & 7/16 in length. this is 1/16 too short. This could be the problem if this is the studs that were used.

True, a stud 1/16" too short would be a problem, but then again if a stud was made to the correct length but the coarse thread was 1/16" too long one could have the same situation. There are many variables to consider, all of which only illustrate that nothing is perfect. The link to the Judging Standards really gives more information for the nut then it does for the stud, looks to me like that was the intended focus there. As was also mentioned, it sure looks as the studs in the factory photos were different lengths. I was never into "Points" cars, only drivers, but if trophies excite you then that's OK with me.

BRENT in 10-uh-C 04-10-2012 06:01 PM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Fordors, just remember that Fine-point Model-A's are often used as great 'Drivers' too, ...but sadly most find the same cannot be said for the other way around! ;) It really is just a matter if you like to do both, --or are limited to one.

hardtimes 04-11-2012 01:52 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Vince,
So, they (nuts)weren't always uniform ! Did the studs vary in length/diam in different years also?

Marco Tahtaras 04-11-2012 10:30 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardtimes (Post 404439)
Vince,
So, they (nuts)weren't always uniform ! Did the studs vary in length/diam in different years also?


I'm confused. How can you say they they aren't uniform from those small pics! They sure look consistent to me. Of course pic #3 is different than the others by design as I explained above but that was changed in very early 1928.

J and M Machine 04-11-2012 05:21 PM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordgarage (Post 404441)
I merely pointed out (on the other thread) that the original dimension of the head was 2.250 inches from gasket surface to the top of the 12 bosses. J&M has a different claim.

I did not comment about the stud lengths.

Basically: This is what I have found that works is 2.2" with the studs and head supplied by Snyder's.

Unfortunately I did not measure the studs to say it's the studs' fault or head.

My Main concern is to have 100% thread engagement and have the engine look stock.

Had I assembled the nuts without machining the head there would of been two or three threads left open.

George Miller 04-12-2012 08:17 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

I have a 5 year old Snyder's head on my Sports coupe with original studs. I just went and checked, there is one thread showing. So the heads were right back then. Maybe the studs are wrong not the head.

BRENT in 10-uh-C 04-12-2012 08:55 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Miller (Post 405089)
I have a 5 year old Snyder's head on my Sports coupe with original studs. I just went and checked, there is one thread showing. So the heads were right back then. Maybe the studs are wrong not the head.

I agree George and I think that is what some were trying to point out.

Mike V. Florida 04-22-2012 12:01 AM

Re: Snyder's head machined
 

FYI from Larry Brumfield about head studs.

I've read some discussions lately about the stud length and nut thickness for the Model A Ford and there's a lot of misinformation out there. Maybe some may find the following to be useful:

Here are the correct length dimensions (there was a slight tolerance):
Overall length of the 11 main studs = 3.500"
This length as well as the length for the other 3 studs does NOT go all the way to the end of the so called "dome" as most believe. It is the distance from the bottom of the stud to the end of the fine threaded area, below the dome. (And BTW the original dome was practically nothing; not near as rounded off as some of the repo studs in the last 45 years or so .. but important I guess for those seeking the exact original look.)
The threaded area at the base on ALL of the studs was .750" or 3/4" and this amount should be utilized completely as the stud screws in the block.
Once screwed down in the block there should be 2.750" of stud height above the block (dome adds to the length and is not included in the 2.750") and also for 1.000" of the overall "unthreaded" length above the block, the diameter shoulde be a full 7/16". This full diameter in the unthreaded area is necessary for the best head and gasket alignment.
Overall length, most common ignition stud = 3.680" (subtract .750" for above block length)
Overall length, most common 2 front studs = 5.710" (subtract .750" for above block length) Nut thickness or height = .440"


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