Model A Registration Woes Today I went to look at a 1931 Model A that is for sale. I liked it, it is a good ten footer in very good running condition. The price was negotiated and I am happy with it. This is the situation:
1. The owner has passed away and his wife is selling the car. 2. The car has an out of state plate and registration and a title. It seems that the owner felt it was more convenient to keep the old paper work then to re-register the car in his new home state. 3. I have a copy of the title and death certificate and plan to go to the DMV for advice before I seal the deal with payment. 4. After I got back home, I find that the VIN # on the title does not match the number on the engine. The engine must have been changed when it was rebuilt. I suppose the VIN # on the frame may match the title but who wants to go through all the work of removing the front fender? I want the car but I'm afraid I will be laughed out of the DMV trying to register a car with a different ID number. Has anyone run across a situation like this? Any suggestions? Thank you, Ed |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Fair warning here, most advice will be state-specific.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes We had the same thing happen. They had to deal with the state where the title was.
On the number, the state probably assigned a vin number and that is the one to use. It has nothing to do with the engine number. Both of my A’s have state assigned numbers with a small plate on the fire wall. I think your plan is good. Just go in and lay it all out. You will be ok. |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Hello,Pennsylvania will issue a state VIN number to be attached to the car usually on the firewall if the original can’t be found or missing or doesn’t match title. Seems rare to find a Model A still having the original engine.A friend of mine bought a 1939 Lincoln Zephyr from New York and had to go that process.He didn’t know it was on bell housing.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes The state that it is currently registered in may have put a registration plate on the firewall or the inside door jamb. If that state issued a state assigned number you may be home free.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Hi, Hopefully the Maine DMV will not go and try to match the engine number with the registration unless the clerk/agent is trying to be the next Inspector Clouseau (which I highly doubt). Present your papers which indicate a clear title and let them take the ball and process it. DEFINITELY DO NOT TELL THEM ABOUT THE MISMATCH !! Here in NY they took my papers (Model A) which indicated a clear title and processed it immediately, happy to get the money and close the deal. I realize that when it comes to motor vehicle registration every state is a foreign country, but it's the Holiday Season, a time of giving, so I think things will work out! A good strategy might be to go to the DMV Office late in the day when they are in a hurry to close and go home. Good luck!
Please let everyone know how you made out. Gary |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Is the current title in his name? That should be okay if it does. You will probably need something to verify that his wife is the executor, unless her name is on the title, which I suspect it is not, plus the death certificate.
As for the VIN/serial number, you have two routes to go. One is to not worry about it and register it in your name. You will not the the only person who has a car where the engine number does not match the title. Without taking the body off, you won't be able to confirm the SN on the title is the same as the frame number. And what if it is not? The other thing you can do is to see about getting it titled in Vermont initially with the engine number you have. You will need to have a police officer check the SN, run an NCIC check to see if it is stolen and have that same agency give you a letter per the Vermont DMV requirements and then register it in that state and then either run Vermont tags or transfer it to Maine. New England is a bit different from most states, i.e. what I just told you about Vermont. New Hampshire has a similar process and I wouldn't be surprised if Maine doesn't either. Everyone in the country runs Maine licenses on their trailers so they don't have to pay excise tax on the purchase, so maybe getting a title there for a car like yours isn't very difficult? I would take all this into account when coming up with a price to pay for the car, because of the title/SN situation. Giving more information to DMV than you need to is not always the best approach. I will PM you my phone number and you can call me if you want to discuss. Someone in Maine or in your local Model A club has probably dealt with a situation similar to this. |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Take the paperwork to AAA if you are a member. That will probably be the easiest, nest would be go to your own DMV and present the papers. Get the widow to write out a bill of sale which she signs for her late husband. I would not disclose the difference in numbers.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Go to the DMV and be straight up about what is going on. If it can be worked out you will have a car you like and will have no worries going forward.
If it turns out you will need to jump through a bunch of hoops to make it work then you will need to decide if that is worth it for the price you negotiated. If not you can negotiate a lower price and go for it or walk away. There are lots of A's out there. |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Your situation can easily become "title hell". If DMV makes it complicated be prepared to pass on the deal and find a ride with a clear in-state title. Making the deal contingent on getting a clear title was a smart move. Good Luck.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Quote:
Charlie Stephens |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Move to Georgia, get a bill pf sale and you are home free :)
TerryO |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Yes, the rules are very state specific. Find out exactly what you need in the state of Maine (or the state you are registering in). I think that they are pretty easy.
I had a similar problem and anticipated big problems. However, here in Connecticut for a car that old they were satisfied with just a Bill of Sale. Best of luck. Keep us posted. Ken |
Re: Model A Registration Woes If it were me I would put it on the wife to get the title in her name. Then buy it from her. There is no proof that the husband has ever had title and as such it will most likely need a judge to solve the issue legally.
While absolutely not legal, but I have met people that have just signed the name of the person on the title and re-stamped the engine. Again illegal. |
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Re: Model A Registration Woes deaths. have the wife title to her name. bingo bongo fresho titlo. the dead are not authorized to sell in US markets.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Maine is a very easy state to title in. no need to get your liver in a quiver!
who cares if the engine matches up? half of them or more dont. |
Re: Model A Registration Woes I don't think any of what you are reading applies to you.You are in Maine.Just like N.H.you can scribble a bill of sale on the back of an envelope,get a verification of VIN,and go register.I think you are going to complicate things by showing up with old titles from deceased people in other states.If you start volunteering information and asking questions they are going to have to answer questions they don't really have answers for.There are no titles on old cars in Maine.Go talk to old car people around you,they can tell you just what to do,it is a nothing process.The guys I deal with in Maine say they all use just the engine number,if you try to explain the non-matching thing you will start a very confusing situation.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Do what Keith says, using the existing engine numbar. DO NOT open a "can of worms".
Good Luck, let us know how you make out. Paul in CT "Back in the day" I bought and sold dozens of cars here in CT never validating a S/N or VIN #, just copied from the previous pa-work. |
Re: Model A Registration Woes I also recommend talking to your local AAA office first. They process titles and registration and often have someone who specializes in older cars. I did that here in California, with a Model A I purchased from someone in New York. They were great to work with and very efficient.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Over on the HAMB they have pretty much eliminated threads like this. Most of the ideas here border on the illegal. Maine has a set of rules. Ask their DMV what is acceptable. Finally, consider how cutting corners may effect the sale to the next owner.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Good Evening! I would like to add my two cents to going to AAA first, if you are or are not a member. Their reason for being is to help with problems like this. They will know what will work and what will not work. What is legal and what is not. Ernie in Arizona
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Most of these answers are solutions looking for a problem.I repeat,Maine is NON TITLE for the old cars.We have been dragging cars out of the willywags and driving them since there have been cars.Maine and N.H. doesn't have the reverence for documents and such that other states have.i know people find it hard to believe,but they really don't much care.If you have something that is actually stolen,that is a different story,Talk to local guys,and they will tell you in two minutes how to do it legally.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes I 100% agree with Keith.
Try to talk to some locals. Bring as few docs to the registry as possible. The more docs you bring is more of a chance of confusion and opening a can of worms that you originally didn't have. In your first post, you said taking off the fender to find the numbers. It is the body that must be lifted to find the numbers. |
Re: Model A Registration Woes By your original post, I take it the owner has a valid title, albeit in another state. That's OK. An engine number matching the original VIN is NOT required, probably a large majority of vintage cars out there have the same thing. So, I don't see a problem. Have the owner's wife write you out a bill of sale and give you a death certificate, bring it to the DMV office and have it transferred into your name. It should be simple and straightforward. There is no law that says you can't stamp a VALID VIN on other parts of the car, in fact some theft deterrent practices do just that. Once it was my car, I'd buy a nice professional VIN tag and afix it to the frame somewhere reasonably easy to see, maybe by the starter or ??? If you KNOW the engine number is in fact NOT the correct VIN, you can remove it. Its not necessary, but can make the process less confusing. Re-stamping the engine with the correct, valid VIN is not only acceptable, it should ALWAYS be done when a replacement engine is installed. You cannot legally remove or deface the true VIN, which is located on the frame, under the body. Its a matter of common sense. If it was me, I'd make the sale agreement contingent on the title transfer. A reasonable seller will be OK with that. What you are looking at here, if I'm understanding the situation correctly, is not going to be an issue. Have all the paperwork in order, state the facts clearly to the DMV, and then close your mouth and let them do their job.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes Hi, I'm in Maine and what Keith says is the right way to go. You do not need a title for an old car in Maine.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes AAA processes titles in CALI- nowhere else that I am aware of...........
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Re: Model A Registration Woes EVERY state is different when it comes to vehicle registration. EVERY state. Advice for what works in California or Minnesota, or Arizona, or Colorado, or ANY other state is worthless. What works in Ohio WILL NOT work in Maine. ONLY what works in Maine will work in Maine.
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ford thats been entombed since 1943. for a title these brain dead idiots want me to dig up a grave for the woman original owner to sign bill of sale; the car went through couple of hands so I bought it and no one registered it. I paid hard cash for the thing. I know as an old man flipping out, is this country is big time with vehicles, ok, school shootings thats ok, ah, but you got a bulb out you are in deep shit. No can do; right jolly roger cross bone. pic of a plate print and paste done. then inspection sticker. for $39 bucks it flew right off the window. and I have to get another one for their cheap glue no way ; So what I need to now is the billions of dollars in this dump RMV where does does all this money go ? Ah Charley baker another ha ya ah bill Clinton bro. brain dead pollitition. Where is our pot hole asphalt::: Im sorry'' but being old man no way ta get out of here and its a long walk to down south ........................ |
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Eagle, you da man. Would just add that the frame number ideally must match the title number - especially important when the vehicle is sold at a later date to someone out of state. Admittedly, difficult to check but good to know. |
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No one at the Missouri office checked and neither did I. And from what I can tell, this is not an uncommon issue on a Model A where the motor has been replaced, either with a Model A engine or a later V8. It would be difficult and more confusing, I think, for any state to try and keep changing the serial number of the car to match engine Serial numbers. Just my 2 cents |
Re: Model A Registration Woes And from what I can tell, this is not an uncommon issue on a Model A where the motor has been replaced, either with a Model A engine or a later V8. It would be difficult and more confusing, I think, for any state to try and keep changing the serial number of the car to match engine Serial numbers. Just my 2 cents
Its a simple and perfectly legal solution to just restamp the engine to match the car VIN. |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Why don't you just restamp the engine number to match the title. Go on EBay and buy a blank vin plate, and have it stamped to match the engine and title. Mount it under the floorboard on the crossmember. It might not be the most ethical thing to do, but on an 80 year old car and a young person at the DMV, it works!
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Charlie Stephens |
Re: Model A Registration Woes Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 511, the alteration of a VIN, could be a federal criminal offense. Further, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years. Similarly, Pennsylvania’s statutes also address this matter. Specifically, 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 7703 states that a person who alters, counterfeits, defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates or removes a vehicle identification number with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both. Further, and most concerning is that pursuant to 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 7704 any person who purchases, receives, disposes, sells, transfers or possesses a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with knowledge that the vehicle identification number of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part has been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated or removed with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both. Moreover consider, especially with the case of restamped engines that, in Pennsylvania, it is illegal knowingly buy, or sell an automotive part from which the manufacturer’s name plate, serial number or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered or destroyed unless instructed or done by the manufacturer. 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 4104.
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Re: Model A Registration Woes You can go to your local town hall in Maine and register your "new" Model A. They will not take your old title and issue a new title. No new titles for antique cars like Keith says. Do not go to the DMV. Are you a member of a club here in Maine? The Pine Tree A's meet monthly in Kennebunk.
Put the old title you get with the car and the old registration and put it in a safe place in case you ever sell the vehicle to someone in a state that requires a title and/or old registration. |
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Re: Model A Registration Woes The A used the serial number,it was not called a VIN.The Branham bible,the book used by town clerks for info to register cars states the Model A Ford uses the engine number,and shows a picture of the number pad.No mention of the frame number.My Branham book is 1932.My Canadian chassis have no frame numbers.In Maine this is not difficult or costly.I sold a 65 VW to a guy in Maine last summer,we made out a bill of sale but got to gabbing and he left it on the toolbox in my garage.A month later he drove in with the car,he got it registered with no problem.There are supposed to be procedures in place in every state to deal with other states requirements,but the clerks in other states seem to ignore that fact,and won't even bother trying to help you.Maine and N.H.are just not like that.Talk to anybody around you that registers pre-title cars,and go to the town clerk with the info they tell you to.
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