Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Swap meet find yesterday. I believe these might be Cheater heads, but not sure. What do I have here? Notice that the top one's water neck is machined down a little bit, and the bottom one's neck is smooth.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1335650146


Both have the same part number. I saw on the internet that the 6049 was the left side, and the 6050 was the right side. Which side carries both part numbers???

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1335650236


The top head in the picture below looks unaltered. The bottom head has been milled (compared to the top one) and the area over the valves opened up. I was told by an old stock car racer once that they would make them pull the heads to show that they weren't modified, so they would only mill one to increase performance a little bit, but have the stock one to pull and show the officials.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1335650129


They both have a little "C" in a circle, similar to the "copyright" symbol. Again, "cheater?" or "canada"

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1335650222


And one says 79 in the top left corner...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1335650172

and one says 140 in the top left corner...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...g?t=1335650192


The 140 head has the smooth water neck, but is the head that is milled.

The 79 head has the stepped, or machined water neck, but is not milled.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Those look like stock 38 Ford to me. Denver heads say 81 SB......

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

I see no mention of the 24 stud engines coming in aluminum in stock form according to Mac VanPelt's website. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place?

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Jason,
Early 38 came with aluminum heads. I can't say for sure if this is what
You have.... Hope this helps. Rich.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Early '38's' were still 21 stud. Canadian and export engines were fitted with aluminium heads, although the stamped numbers (79 & 140) I don't think were a factory mark.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

This is a Ford Canada head, Cheater heads had Weiand (2nd Photo)on the block side below the water neck.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Weiand wasn't the only one making cheater heads, it is rumoured that Weiand copied a genuine cheater head for his line.

I seem to remember reading on here quite a while ago that the original small volume heads were factory? produced for cars operating at altitude.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

The good heads also have the comp ratio stamped behind the water neck, see above photo.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

FoMoCo Denver heads (for high altitude regions) were cast iron on all the ones I've seen so far. Pre-war heads were still right or left. The post war heads were interchangeable after the change to the valve angles in the block.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Jason,
I found this on the hamb for You...Please see post #10
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...aluminum+heads
Also I took some pictures of My cast iron Denver heads.
Not sure what Your chambers are, But Your heads are
Fords and I believe they are fairly uncommon ..... Rich

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

I just went and looked at a set I have on a 59AB, veteruns of the round track days. I see C7RA-6050B Upper left NSN, center, CANADA center under that and the comp ration stamped or the water neck.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Thats interesting, you learn something every day.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Thanks for all the info about the Denver heads. I knew about the Weiand cheeters and when I saw these, I immediately looked for the Weiand info and stampings behind the water neck, but nothing is cast or stamped in this area.

I have not been able to track down a similar image or info about these heads. Anyone else have a clue?

Thanks everyone.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Pretty sure these are aftermarket, marked to give a crude connection with the 1938 series of heads (several heads) that were used roughly 1938-1942 on many of the early 24 studders. Some versions differed R&L, others did not these are marked that way to show they are...ummm...ambidextrous. Ford did not do that...they used 49 and 50 separately to show side where needed, showed only one #, I think 6050, on heads to be used on either side.
81...8 indicates 1938 as introduction date of heads, 1 indicates first use was on 221 (even though some 221 heads were used OEM on 239's, design first use was 221)
Ford never used just tjhe 81 as start of a number...next letter indicated series of first design use, kept even if used on other lines, as in 81 T for trucks, 81A for cars. All 81 PN's would have had the suffix, not just a bare 81. Some Ford grammar:
81A-6049, a head...81A-6049-B, a DIFFERENT head also introduced as '38 passenger, like possibly iron and aluminum variants
C81A-6049...a CAnadian head
81C-6049 would have been a USA Commercial head, light trucks
C81C would have been a Canadian commercial...see, POSITION is important in grammar!
So any head with C as first character is Canadian...specs and applications were in different series of books, too
Denver heads...there were at least 3 different kinds, labeled in some sources as "High altitude or natural gas", carried numbers like "81AS", all had the S addes, probably meant Special or some such. The S meant there was NO original production use, this head was over-the counter-only.
By the way, in 1938 all this was marked only in shorthand...visible on the front of the head they only put A, T, or AS on fronts of heads...

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

I've been wondering about the aftermarket possibility... I found this listing on the EGGE website showing an aluminum head at the bottom of the page without the "A" designation. Maybe I'll send them a message and see if these are one of theirs.

http://egge.com/GarageSale1002.html#heads

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

The part number construction is not right for an actual Ford part. They are aftermarket with enough Ford in the number used to identify usage.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Great thread! You'all really know your stuff!

Thanks!

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Just to stir it up some more, and perhaps in conflict with my buddy Fairlane's post, my understanding is that the NSN in the middle of the aluminum head is an indicator of the Weiand cheater head. But different from the one above is that it only says "Canada" rather than "Made in Canada", so maybe it's a combination of those two features. Here's a close up pic of the Weiand on my engine.....

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Uncle Bob, you wouldn't have in your files a picture of the combustion chamber profile on these Weiands, would you?

If anyone else has a set of heads in your stash similar to mine, I would appreciate hearing your input. Could it be possible that my heads are just another company's "cheater" offering, or do the combustion chambers on the unmodified one look stock?
These heads were on a stack of junk in an old chrome plater's trailer. He was very elderly, and I cleaned a good 40 years of crud off of these with a bristle brush and degreaser.

I also like hearing more stories about the cheater and Denver heads, so don't be shy to post up.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

No Jason, I do not, sorry.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Denvers were all iron, all prewar. They came in 81AS at 60 CC and in 2 versions with merc 239 numbers...I have all the cc specs around somewhere. The 81's at 60 CC were a hot setup for stock spec racers but I believe they were discontinued before the war and so were very rare by the time they were widely known...I have a set of the 81's, and it is the only set I have seen. The guy I bought then from was in the race car section at hershey, and said that he had brought the things to Hershey for 15 years and I was the first person to notice what they were! Some piece of Ford literature I have designates them for something like "high altitude and natural gas" use.
The real Canadian aluminum C7RA was slightly higher comp than the 59A-B US head, probably about enough to compensat the heat loss to aluminum...it was imported in considerable numbers in 1960's for same market that wanted Denvers...it had a normal Ford chamber with high flow area.
The Weiand copies were MUCH cruder castings and had a low roof chamber like most aftermarket heads. I think they were sold with two comp ratings originally.
Around 1968, the Honest Charley catalog shows both real and Weiand heads.
I got my C7's from Joblot in the '70's...they had stacks of new Canadian aluminum stuff, I think like 17 dollars per head. I was too poor to buy extras...
Joblot used to let me go back and roam the warehouse...incredible experience!

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Bruce, do you have any pictures of your 81AS heads? Do they look like nobey's heads?

I'd love to find a pair myself to put on my 38 coupe (with 39 Mercury motor equipped with a 53 merc crank...)

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

I think mine are marked differently...will have to go look. I think mine have no 81 up top, just an SB or maybe ASB over at one side sort of like the 81A's that show just an A...markings were very cryptic and obscure, only noticeable to a seriously disturbed part number freak...they look just like all the grimy stock iron heads that no one even notices at fleamarkets.
That would be a really cool setup...your '38 would be a super duper Police Special Secret Weapon, The Police Chief's own moonshiner chaserdowner!

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

Yeah 38 coupe. That would be a great setup!!

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

I always thought this was a true Kanadian head. It has had the "CANADA" mostly sanded off, but you can see where it used to be. It's not a filled head on the underside, so it looks more Ford-ish than an aftermarket hotrod head might look.


.

Re: Are these Denver/Cheater Heads? ID help.
 

A quick casting check on an assembled engine is the big water outlet...the crudity of the Weiand is very apparent there, with extremely irregular hole shape and thick, randomly shaped walls. Actual Ford is smooth, thin, and regular. Also, the W only has one of the small outlets drilled on each head, though obviously those could have been opened, Weiand is cast on the back, and number relating to compression is stamped back there somewhere...don't remember whether alleged ratio or valve pocket depth is noted.