Pulley broken
 

Hallo und guten Tag.
I'm currently rebuilding my broked engine block internals onto a crack-free block, which Dave from the NE got for me.
During the process, I carelessly broke off a little piece from the pulley flange while maneuvering.
Are the rumors true that the two-piece version doesn't always run perfectly true?
Thanks in advance!

Re: Pulley broken
 

Werner, My advice is to dump the original style pulley (unless originality is important to you) and use one of the harmonic balancers made in New Zealand. The improvement to the smoothness of the engine is impressive and it will increase the life of the bearings. They are well made and the ewer version is a two piece item. They are made to suit either the original style of front seal or a modern style one.
I'm sure someone will be able to provide a contact for the maker. I can't lay my hand on mine at the moment.

Re: Pulley broken
 

For a time, die cast zinc pulleys were made. They were an example of what to avoid. Snyder's has a cast steel two piece that works well. They allow removal of the pulley without removing the radiator. This feature makes them worthwhile.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Werner - I cannot speak to current production two-piece pulleys, but the two piece pulley I took off of my '30 pickup (now gone) was quite wobbly and did not mesh well between the two pieces. It was cast iron, I suspect from the 80's or 90's. There should be no reason to remove the front pulley after the engine is installed (although I did install the replacement one-piece with the engine in the car), so why not use a one-piece pulley and be confident in it?

I'm sure others have contrary opinions, but that's my $0.02 worth.

We (the FordBarn) had a discussion about a year ago re: the harmonic balancers. Here's what Synchro909 turned up then:

"I’m reviving this thread because I am in New Zealand and have been speaking with Chris Horn. He is selling to the public at $NZ 450 (about $US 260 plus shipping). I have had one on another car since 2014 and wouldn’t rebuild an engine now and not use one. His phone number is (NZ country code is 64) 021 198 6639. They come with either a reverse scroll for rope seals or a smooth OD for the neoprene seals."

Re: Pulley broken
 

The latest contact info I have for Chris Horn is

Chris Horn
15 Vulcan Place
8024 Christchurch Canterbury New Zealand
[email protected].

Comparison of Horn Balancer to stock:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...26b7395b_z.jpg

Re: Pulley broken
 

FYI, You can not use the stock type "Ratchet Nut" with the Horn Balancer.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...2dc5f7a6_z.jpg

Re: Pulley broken
 

Something must have changed because I am using the stock "ratchet nut" with the Horn balancer I purchased several years ago.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Carl, I think you are correct. I don't have a Ratchet Nut handy to try. Now that I think about it, I didn't think it would fit because my "Bent Wrench" wouldn't fit in the Balancer so I didn't use it.... Been a long time since I installed it.

Only thing that has changed is the one piece is no longer offered, all are two piece.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c5e4a771_z.jpg

Re: Pulley broken
 

When I installed my latest harmonic balancer, I used the original nut. The tool I made for it didn't reach into the balancer far enough to work so I bought a socket (I think 1 3/8"). I haven't used my home made one again since.

Re: Pulley broken
 

My new bolt takes at 15/16" socket.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a633acc1_z.jpg

Re: Pulley broken
 

Just file the edges smooth.

Re: Pulley broken
 

For those that have installed a Chris horn balancer what is the "fit" of the two piece parts. All the harmonic balancers I have installed on modern engines are a press fit on the crankshaft to make it as one. Is the horn balancer relying on the key, fit on the shaft, or just the torque of the bolt.? What is the recommended torque. I am thinking of installing one on my Burtz. Thanks.

Re: Pulley broken
 

I have not install my two piece Horn Balancer yet. I believe I torqued my one piece to 80 ft/lbs. It is not a press fit.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Guten Tag.


The broken-off piece is just under an inch long. Even though I sanded and polished the edges, the V-belt is still a bit frayed along the side.

I wrote to the address in New Zealand mentioned above, but haven't received a reply.


I can't imagine that the harmonic pulley mentioned will make much of a difference. The huge, inert mass of the large flywheel should dampen all vibrations, I think?

Re: Pulley broken
 

I don't think a harmonic balancer would do much for you on a Burtz engine. The balancer takes a lot of the "whip" out of the crank shaft, thus smoothing things out and protecting your main bearings, especially the middle one. The Burtz engine has a crank shaft that is waaaayyy more rigid than the original so there is little to no benefit.

Re: Pulley broken
 

The heavy flywheel on a Model A engine does iron out most of the vibrations at the back of the engine. It does nothing for the vibrations and forces within the engine. The heavy flywheel, having a lot of inertia takes a lot to speed up. When a cylinder fires, especially one of the front ones, the flywheel acts as a big brake on the back of the crank shaft. The torque produced by the firing cylinder causes the crank shaft to twist and buckle. That puts a huge pressure on the middle main bearing, thus shortening its life.
The harmonic balancer treats those vibrations in a different way from a crude, heavy fly wheel. It is designed to absorb the vibration rather than allow it to "wind up" the crank shaft.
I hope I have explained that clearly enough.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Synchro, if as a terry days the Burtz is a modern engine on the inside and I agree it is then a torsional vibration dampener might have some value. One thing I do know modern engines from at least the 50s all have have torsional vibration dampeners and if the dampener is removed or fails the is a high likely hood of the crank failing.. as mentioned the weight of the stock flywheel, plus pressure plate and disc is a massive weight hung on the back of the crank that does dampen the combustion strokes but does nothing to dampen torsional vibration. Many Burtz engines are being built with Terry's 32 lb. Flywheel so tight away you do not have that massive engine combustion shock absorber. So it seems to me any thing you can do to absorb the combustion impulses and torsional vibration may be a good thing. Terry's crankshaft is very robust, heavily counterweighted, well supported but is still not immune to rotational vibration..

Re: Pulley broken
 

Convinced, thanks! How much does that part weigh, please?


But I don't know where to get it. Now would be the perfect time. The oil pan and timing cover are still off.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Hi Werner. The Harmonic Balancer weighs a little over 5.5 lbs. I think you can only get them from Chris Horn @ [email protected].

I installed mine with the engine in the car, pan and timing cover on. I did have to jack the engine up quite far to clear the front crossmember, but that was with a one piece balancer. It should be easier with the two piece.

FYI, someone mentioned all engines from the '50's up had vibration dampeners. Not all, Corvair engines did not have one. Horizontally opposed six cylinders are said to be in "perfect balance". Maybe the same with VW's 4's?

Re: Pulley broken
 

The contact details you need are at the bottom of post #4.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Guten Morgen!


Chris Horn from New Zealand wrote back to me yesterday after three days. He offers me the damping wheel for NZ-$ 560.
At first it seems glance, that it is not a small price, but it is fair and not excessive given because of the complex manufacturing costs.
Unfortunately, there are also approximately €140 for shipping and, even worse, another 7-10% customs duty plus 19% VAT on top of everything. That brings the total to about US-$ 525-545.

That's quite a hefty price, and it stings a bit. But I'm a techie and detail-oriented person, so maybe I'll actually go ahead and order it tonight. Maybe ...


Thanks at everyone for the helpful advises!

Re: Pulley broken
 

When I bought mine it was $300 US, shipping included. At the current exchange rate that is ~$340 US.

Re: Pulley broken
 

My thoughts ...

... what I'm not quite clear on is the low mass of the compensating pulley, at 3 kg with a diameter of approximately 12 cm.
The A-flywheel measures 55 cm and weighs 15 times as much.

I recall/believe that the imbalance is calculated at 0.7 of the radius, circumferential speed raised to the cube x weight.

At a typical cruising speed of only 1500 rpm, this doesn't result in much compensating force.


Or I am I missing think something?

Re: Pulley broken
 

Heavier is typically better with modern engines but they also run at a higher RPM than your typical model A. would be running.

Re: Pulley broken
 

As I understand it, the harmonic damper is meant to be used as part of a "defense in depth" strategy, i.e., it is not a solution by itself.

People who recommend the use of the damper typically recommend it as part of a strategy to rebalance the rotating assembly overall: lighter pistons, lighter flywheel, added counterweights, and a harmonic damper. This redistributes the mass of the assembly in a way that reduces the crankshaft's tendency to flex under heavy loads and at high speeds. These changes, combined with oil filtration to remove contaminants quickly, are thought to prolong the life of the crankshaft bearings. And of course it changes the behavior of the engine.

Re: Pulley broken
 

N'Abend Alexis,


thank you for the simple explanation. I understand now. I had seen it between my ears too narrowly, not as a partial addition to a complete solution.


Thanks once more again.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Guten Tag.

I must apologize for some misinformation in # 21.

I made two mistakes. I overlooked the fact that Mr. Horn's quoted price already included shipping costs. Furthermore, there is a trade agreement with Germany that exempts products manufactured in New Zealand from customs duties.

In that case, the price is about $150 lower, which is a better deal. Sorry! -


But I have one other further question:
Is it right, that I understood, that when using the thick Teflon strip (the white one), the running surface should be milled with grooves for backflow?
Won't these grooves damage the Teflon mesh through abrasion?

Thank you all in advance! __________________

Re: Pulley broken
 

Werner, if you are referring to the timing cover "rope" seal https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...8847&cat=41694 (Someone called it a "Goose Turd"), no, the reverse scowl on the damper will not hurt it. In fact, I had a slight weep from my front seal and it stopped when I installed the damper, never to return... so far. That was ~7 years ago.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ebd521bd_z.jpg

Re: Pulley broken
 

Hello,

the harmonic vibration damper arrived within 5 days. Chris Horn made a very good job. It fits perfectly.
It's quite a hefty piece. Tightening the 1 2/8" crankshaft nut it seems would a bit tricky, as the outer diameter of the socket have to be ground down slightly.
Thanks at all for your much advices!

Gruesse auch nach NZ,
Werner

Re: Pulley broken
 

Werner, I think we would all like to hear your impressions on the effect of the balancer on the smoothness of the engine.

Re: Pulley broken
 

International shipping sometimes is surprising. At one point I was restoring antique BMW motorcycles and was regularly getting parts shipments from suppliers in Germany and England. Shipping times and generally costs to California were much less than from locations within the US.


Out of the US - can't say.

Re: Pulley broken
 

I sometimes buy stuff from a friend in Arizona. He used to us USPS but we have found UPS is quicker and cheaper. Hmmmm!
At the other end of the scale, I have told here before that to bring anything over here by surface freight (anything heavy or bulky), it takes 3-4 months. On one occasion, it took 18 months for a car to arrive but that was delayed by industrial trouble on the US docks. I was beginning to wonder if I would ever get it.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Hello Synchro [as a long-time contributor, could you please also give us your first name?] and fellow readers.

I'd be happy to do that. But my statement is only half valid. I'm currently rebuilding my old, broken engine into a used short block that an exceptionally kind forum member from Nebraska procured for me.
That means when the "new" engine is driving, it's a an other engine, so a direct before/after comparison perhaps isn't possible.

Re: Pulley broken
 

Werner, my christian name is Arnold. I won't tell what my wife calls me other than to say it starts with "A" as well!!
It ends in "hole".

Re: Pulley broken
 

Seems to me that I've heard that name somewhere. :)

Re: Pulley broken
 

My CEO is close, she is forever telling me not to be so "Anal... :eek:

Re: Pulley broken
 

Mistake