Burtz Block Price??
 

I wonder how the new tariffs are going to effect the price of the new Burtz Blocks and other Model A Parts (among other things)?

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Maybe enough they'll cast it here........

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25%, but of what? Certainly hope it's not full retail.

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if the price goes much higher, sales will drop. not a good outcome.

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25% of what the American buyer pays the Chinese manufacturer.

Terry searched the US from the Canadian border to Mexico, east coast to west. He was unable to find anybody it the US who can still pour an engine block. IMO, that really highlights how big would be the task of taking those (and other ) jobs back to the US. There is not even anybody to teach the skill to others.
We have exactly the same situation over here. So much of what we use is made in China that neither we nor you guys could defend ourselves against attack unless China approves. I'll let you guys join the next dot.

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Synchro
Sure makes one wonder about how the USA would put forth a war effort if necessary.
Order parts from an enemy? Yeah right
Delivery might be dang slow! Like when we’ve lost! We might not even get uniforms!
Crazy crazy

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There was plenty of warning. The smart play would have been to build up stateside inventories and try to wait out the trade war. You can sequester new production in China while you wait.

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I think the problem is pricing.

There are still companies that cast engine blocks in the USA.

Enjoy.

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There are plenty of foundries still in the US that can pour a sand cast engine block and companies that can machine them. The problem wasn't they couldn't but that they were not able to compete with the ChiComs on price. With tariffs we may get more Made in the USA stickers on stuff.

Here a a few foundries that can do the job.
Quaker City Castings: A foundry that uses sand casting to create complex metal parts
RMC Sand Casting Foundry: A foundry that uses green sand casting, pre-coated resin sand casting, and furan resin sand casting
Northfield Manufacturing: A foundry that specializes in low-volume production
Sioux City Foundry: A foundry that has been operating for over 140 years
Lemfco, Inc. A gray iron casting foundry in Illinois
Taylor Fenn: A foundry that works with over 100 different grades of iron and steel
Clinch River Casting, Inc. A foundry that manufactures low to medium-run iron castings

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I think it's a bit more nuanced than just price. I've heard Terry speak to this several times. A significant issue was the size of the run. I'm quite sure that if Terry had been able to dangle a (say) 10,000 unit order in front of the foundries he contacted then the answer would have been quite different. But the foundries he contacted wanted megabucks to prepare the cores, then high unit prices because the volume was low. Another issue is capacity - for small orders foundries typically fulfill them in between other larger orders, and as such availability is questionable. Remember that any purchased product has a price point. I'm not sure the Burtz engine would be as desirable at twice or three times the cost.

I won't go on here, but if Terry or John think it is valuable to chime in I'm sure they will. In my opinion, having heard the background on his sourcing of the cast parts straight from him, I'm confident that it is defensible.

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It always comes down to price. Companies will do one part or a million. There is a foundry in LA that will pour a few parts. The 1% uses them to produce parts to restore their million $+ cars.

Sand casting prices don't change much with volume. You create a new mold for each block. If you expend the dollars to create permanent molds the price comes down because you're saving the labor cost to make a new mold for each engine. They foundry doesn't care what they are pouring. It's based on pounds per hour they can pour into the molds. You can buy a fully machined ChiCom sand cast Chevy V8 block for $800 - https://sjzjialiya.en.made-in-china....d=1ija4nue2175


There are plenty of foundries still in the US that can pour a sand cast engine block and companies that can machine them. The problem wasn't they couldn't but that they were not able to compete with the ChiComs on price. With tariffs we may get more Made in the USA stickers on stuff.

Here a a few foundries that can do the job.
Quaker City Castings: A foundry that uses sand casting to create complex metal parts
RMC Sand Casting Foundry: A foundry that uses green sand casting, pre-coated resin sand casting, and furan resin sand casting
Northfield Manufacturing: A foundry that specializes in low-volume production
Sioux City Foundry: A foundry that has been operating for over 140 years
Lemfco, Inc. A gray iron casting foundry in Illinois
Taylor Fenn: A foundry that works with over 100 different grades of iron and steel
Clinch River Casting, Inc. A foundry that manufactures low to medium-run iron castings

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and in the end- this is a drop in the bucket, compared to other items being produced around the world. we can still have our old motors rebuilt at a shop.


Bigger question I am asking?
Why cant these be cast in India? South America? and so on......... are we only reliant on china? We have become stupid.

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One top feature to me is that the Chinese factory also makes large runs of blocks, etc. for Japanese and Korean auto makers, including machining, so modern quality process is standard for them. It is one stop shopping for Burtz and low probability of warranty issues. Good for us and good for Burtz.

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Michael Savage said that if we went to War we will be in big trouble , becouse we dont make hardly anything any more. Ford built Willow Run in no time at all, and figured out how to build B-24's

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[QUOTE=ModelA29;2367364]It always comes down to price. Companies will do one part or a million. There is a foundry in LA that will pour a few parts. The 1% uses them to produce parts to restore their million $+ cars......
there are plenty of foundries still in the US that can pour a sand cast engine block and companies that can machine them. ....




YOU are absolutely right. A small foundry near us in a small farming town (population 750) has been in business since the War. The guys working there make a good living, they make parts for Deere and Cat and small runs of however many you want.


So the 'they will only do huge production runs' argument isn't necessarily true. Depends on how hard you work to seek out USA made. Snyders has a foundry in Ohio that casts a lot of Model A parts for them. I doubt they demand a run of 10,000 water pump castings before they go to work:eek:

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[QUOTE=Jeff/Illinois;2367494]I have experience with small specialty foundries that make one- and two-off sand castings (for example, one I worked with was making repro windshield stanchions for XK-120 Jaguar roadsters - not much volume demand, I would guess). However, I suspect that an engine block with all its internal passageways is a bit more complicated than a water pump housing. I think I heard Terry say that there are 20-some molds that have to be used for the Model A engine block, and they need to be placed with thousandths-inch accuracy.

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Just a short note...Terry worked for years and had about given up when he came upon the factory in China through one of his now partners...price, yes...QUALITY a must. America voted for Trump...He changes his mind daily...we'll just have to hang on and see what the hell actually happens...trust the actions...not the words...Ernie in Arizona

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Casting the block is only a small part of the story

Terry has a engine manufacturing entity doing the work

All of the machining plus the other parts are done by one manufacturer

Just imagine the logistics of doing this job piece by piece

It would already be too costly to replicate

John

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I agree with you, John. Having the casting and machining done in the same shop is the only way to go to reliably achieve the required accuracy, especially when that shop is capable of doing big runs for vehicle manufacturers all over the world. I have heard (but have no evidence to back it up) that many "Made in USA" cars have engines that come out of Chinese factories. I have posted before that the Chinese are very capable of producing high quality goods but it is clueless western buyers who go there looking for say, widgets for resale in their home countries. They have no idea what makes one widget better than another and can't pick the difference. Company accountants are worse and will pressure for the least cost. We all know that "You get what you pay for" so we get poor quality widgets, then blame the maker. Terry did his homework and went for a quality Chinese product.
I have always said that when you point a finger of blame at someone else, you have 3 other fingers pointing straight back at yourself. I think criticism of the Chinese here is unwarranted. We should look closer to home.

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Manufacturing is a dirty business. The greenies yelled so we sent that business overseas. It was cheaper to let other countries pollute than clean it up here and have the the stockholders take a hit. The old out of sight out of mind problem. Ford spun off the Rouge steel plant in 1989. Rouge Steel Company went bust in 2004 and the Russians bought it.

For WWII the entire auto industry switched over within a few months. My dad was a tool and die maker at Saginaw Steering Gear. When they got the contract for the Browning Machine Gun the price was $667 each. When they delivered the first batch they were able to produce them for $142 each. My parents moved to CA by cashing in the war bonds he was awarded for his engineering and cost cutting measures. His big one was drilling and rifling 6 M1 carbine barrels at one time in one pass. They were doing them one at a time with 4 passes. In total they made about 400,000 Brownings and 300,000 Carbines.

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I have a Burtz block in my garage. The unbuilt engine is gathering dust as we speak, exactly as planned. I had, nor have, any immediate intention of building it.

So why did I buy it?

Because I could see that most people in this world don't have the desire, intelligence, persistence, or impracticality to pursue building such a uniquely valuable, costly (personally and professionally) solution for such a small, ungrateful, stingy, shrinking market such as this.

I said oh sh*t, bless you Terry, but I bet this opportunity won't exist for long.

I read the posts bitching about China from the armchair logistics and engineering experts. Only made it more important to buy one right away. The detractors were a clear signal. I was pleased with the price, no it's not cheap - but it's for an otherwise unobtainable product. (and oh I get it, you know where a whole pile of good old blocks are)

Also, I just double checked and my money went to Terry.

I don't give a sh*t who he paid for whatever else - because what I bought was his expertise, his drive, his persistence, his respect for this hobby, his patience in answering the same f*cking questions about manufacturing sources over and over again. The kind gentleman also maintains his documentation, partner lists and build guide almost religiously - something you won't find from most vendors on any continent.

So why didn't you buy one?

And now you're worried about price...ok.

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Synch--- I wonder if they are the ones making the 6.2 and 5.3 engines for GM, that are looking at an 877,000 unit recall?

Or the last two years of Toyota V6 production that is a nightmare!

Just sayin':)

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Default Re: Burtz Block Price??
I have a Burtz block in my garage. The unbuilt engine is gathering dust as we speak, exactly as planned. I had, nor have, any immediate intention of building it. I am also in the same situation, figured prices would go up or not available at all later.

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I also have a Burtz block and associated goodies sitting - but I have an intended car for it, and will build it when the frame is ready for it. Last year I was telling folks “this winter”, well, here we are in February and I’m not much closer. Damn.

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You have that right! The Chips Act was supposed to be a step in the right direction. Heck Detroit could not even finish cars with power seats for a while. Where I live they are supposed ot build a chip plant. The Gouvenor is after Washington to release some of the money to help pay for infrastructure in that area. Lots of other companies building in that area too. Build our own stuff, house data centers, electrical network enhancements, etc. More jobs in the long-run too.

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The current US unemployment rate is about 4.!% which is considered full employment or very close to it. If the current moves to "bring the jobs home" comes to be, where will all of those people come from, especially when many workers are being deported?
INO, it the efforts to bring manufacturing on shore are successful, rampant inflation will be the result. Who wants that???

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... double post.

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Nope

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That only counts workers collecting unemployment benefits. If their benefit has expired they are no longer counted.

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Thanks for that info. Your system is different from ours and just about impossible to compare those kinds of numbers.

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I like reading about James Dyson.

Here is a snip from "The Austrailan", a Rupert Murdoc paper. In fact his first paper. He used to load them on to the plane here himself at our local airport and has a family property here. Recently seen with Trump.

It says:
"Still, I was surprised to read that despite his enormous success (he now owns more farming land than the Queen), Dyson has continued to encounter a continuing snobbishness in England about his engineering and manufacturing pathway: “It has become so powerful that there is some pride in not knowing anything about engineering. It’s the C.P. Snow analogy,” he adds, referring to the famous 1959 essay, ‘The Two Cultures’ in which the great British scientist lamented the great cultural divide between science and the arts. “In my view it has got worse since. People don’t go into engineering partly because they think it’s difficult but more so because it’s frowned upon … "there was a recent survey which showed engineers are regarded as being even below being a vicar in status,” he says and laughs when I add that journalists come even lower. What is even worse, he adds, is the notion that manufacturing is “dirty, a bit beneath the curve" ...
James Dyson has continued to encounter a continuing snobbishness in England about his engineering and manufacturing pathway."
“When I say at a cocktail party that I’m a manufacturer and not an engineer, people would turn away because they’re not interested and knew nothing about it. I used to do it deliberately and my wife would get very cross with me: ‘You’re doing that to provoke them” she’d say. Football is in their brains but not manufacturing.”...
"When I ask him if he thinks it’s societal, a peculiarly British class thing, he nods: “I think it’s [an attitude] true historically and probably still true today.”
Dyson’s book is, in some ways, more of an ode to failure than success, an exhortation to young people about taking risks, being resilient and picking yourself up off the floor when things go wrong and having the courage to commit, risk and jump in when things go right.
But it is also a love letter to his much loved, if much-maligned, discipline of engineering – even though Dyson himself is a graduate of the Royal Academy of Art and was trained in design, not in engineering.
“I’m an ordinary person. I didn’t even do science at school and yet here I am developing new technology. I don’t want young people to be put off by what their education has been, or what people have told them they are, because actually, they can do whatever they want to do, provided they are motivated,” he says.
“I have spent my life wishing more young people did engineering rather than going to media studies,” adding a ‘sorry’ with a laugh when he catches the look on my face. “Instead of talking about problems, I want young people to solve them. And they can. And they will. I wrote the book partly because of that and partly because the first students at our university will graduate this summer, in September … it’s a milestone for us and seeing how brilliantly they’ve done I thought it would be nice if people heard about the wonderful things they’ve done and are capable of.”

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Would it be possible to 3D print an engine block? One that is usable that is.

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Jay Leno probably could in his garage:)

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With today's cutting edge technology 3D printing most likely in the near future may be the answer to America bringing back manufacturing!!!

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They are 3D printing houses now https://youtu.be/qG7KMjV8zMk?si=x0GRGxm2X021qGUg so why not?

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That would be awesome for Ford Flathead V-8's. There is a big demand for good blocks.

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He was one of the first to add 3d printing to his shop for those unobtanium parts.

The speed of 3D printed houses could be the route to get the CA fire areas fixed. They should also be easier to get insurance on.

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I don't agree with much of what Murdoc says and I take that article with a grain of salt but he does make some good points.
A few years ago, I read an article about some research done by a university in England (I think). They examined the course content of dozens of degrees and ranked them in order of how much academic prowess was required to graduate at Batchelor level. The most difficult was Civil Engineering, closely followed by Land Surveying (see my profile!). Both of those professions require great spatial perception and advanced mathematical ability - something that has been dubbed "Nerdy" by media over the past half century or so, thus discouraging many potential engineers and surveyors from pursuing those careers. The Murdoc media is one of the worst for that.

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Retired civil engineer here, daughter and son-in-law are civil, son is mechanical. Poor mom is outnumbered, she's an accountant.

I was on the industry advisory committee to the Civil Engineering Department of the university where I went to grad school. A good bit of what we faced in recruiting qualified candidates to the civil engineering track was the lure of computers. Starting really in the '90s but continuing today, especially here in California, was the perceived glamor of the dot com industry. Universities ramped up their computer engineering and computer science departments while paying lip service to the "traditional" practice areas of civil, mechanical and electrical (power generation and distribution). It's starting to come back but electrical utilities, who rely upon constant staff turnover, lost a whole generation of power engineers to computers. The appeal of being a millionaire at 30 because you got in on the ground floor of a successful startup, taking stock options instead of salary, was replaced by the reality that most startups fail, and those brilliant folks ended up in the bread line. Or going to law school.