The Ford Barn

The Ford Barn (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/index.php)

- Model A (1928-31) (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3)

- - Vin (https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344866)

I am curious, Where is the VIN, that is on your title, referenced from?

Depends on the state that your trying to register it in, some apparently use the number on the side of the engine and others like Calif. Use the number on the frame. Some cars may also have a "VIN" registration tag that was attached usually in the door jamb area by the state that is used if no #'s are legible to use

You are going to stir the hornets nest with this question, I predict! Short answer, when the Model A was built, the frame number and the engine number matched. Few of the existing As have their original engine, and when the replacement engine was installed the many times the mechanic failed to restamp the replacement engine with the correct number. So then, you get a vin discrepancy between the title and the engine. Solution to this is look on the frame, however this involves lifting the body off of the frame to see. Soooo, just make sure the number from the title matches the engine number. All is good. If not, MAKE it so. Now bring on the naysayers, carring on about changing VIN, etc etc. The VIN was assigned at the factory, make sure that the engine number matches, all is good. If you make up your own VIN or use one fraudulently, that's not cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattgic (Post 2356644)

I am curious, Where is the VIN, that is on your title, referenced from?

motor or frame! But motors have been change thru out life of a model a. Thanks to supplier of picture.

The Serial number of the Model A was the number stamped on the engine. Period end of subject.
That number was also stamped on the frame (of most of the US built cars) before the body was installed. You need to disassemble the car to see it so that discounts it's use by DMV or law enforcement as a easily verifiable number.
If your Calif car was titled in the past using the engine number that is fine. If you are seeking a new title for an out of state car or one built from parts. Newer DMV personnel are clueless. Not seeing a frame number they will add a state assigned number. Being even more clueless they will affix that tag to the removable body not the chassis assuming all cars are unibody.

To get the real answer, check with the DMV office in your state.

DMV? Not likely. ModelA29 is correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planojc (Post 2356771)

To get the real answer, check with the DMV office in your state.

Yeah, ...I'm not so sure that will be a correct answer. :o :eek: :rolleyes:

To the original poster, your question is very ambiguous -and therefore you will be getting many answers that vary in validity. The Ford Factories (-the proper term for those were called Branches by Ford) technically did not issue a VIN to the vehicles they produced. This was solely done at the Rouge facility prior to any assembly of vehicles when they stamped the Engine.

To expound on this, each Engine that passed final inspection at the Rouge was stamped with a sequential number. Information on this is found in the daily Foreman's Logs. After final tests (-Q/C) and the sequential stamping had been performed, the completed Engine assemblies were then warehoused for shipping to one of the many Ford Branches at a later time. Something to note, -at the time of shipping the Engines generally (-i.e. most often) were not shipped sequentially even though that might have been the intent, ...nor were these numbered engines installed sequentially on the assembly line once they had been warehoused at the individual Branches. Understand this further by looking at the picture below.

When the Agencies (-a/k/a Dealers) received the vehicle, it was acquired without any Certificate of Title and was only transferred with a document that today we know as a MSO (Manufacturers Statement of Origin). To be clear, many States at that time did not issue Titles to the purchaser, -and some States even issued a Title to the Purchaser listing the 'year model' at the time the vehicle was actually sold by the Agency, ...which could hypothetically mean that a 1929 model year vehicle that was sold (-for the first time) months afterward in 1930 or 1931 could have been titled as a 1930 or 31 respectively.

Now to muddy up the advice given above, we DO know that while Ford's protocol to the Branch's was to stamp the frame with the same number as was on the installed Engine, we also know this did not always happen for various reasons. This has been documented. Therefore, the ONLY absolute was the first Engine that was installed into the Chassis while on the assembly line had an Identification Number. If someone is making a legal argument about the proper VIN, it really is the Engine's number.

Protocols and mandates have changed since the Model-A was produced, and a great legal argument can be made that for the 1928-1931 Ford Model-A, the Engine number IS the VIN, -and lifting the body to check for a Frame number is solely for the purpose to verify if any tampering has been done in the past.

I testified on the behalf of one client that in modern day vehicles, we find the VIN has been affixed to hoods, fenders, doors, and many other components on the vehicle. By installing a used hood from a vehicle onto another vehicle with a different VIN does not change the VIN for the vehicle it was installed on. I went on to explain that if a Model-A received frame damage sometime in its past, replacing the frame assembly with a used but serviceable frame from a different vehicle was an accepted and legal practice. At that point, the Judge ruled that if the different number on the frame was not presently being used, then the engine's VIN would serve as the proper VIN for the vehicle.

My point in this lengthy post is, often times hearsay and 'he said/she said' info is stated enough times where people choose to regard it as factual. The Model-A hobby is seemingly one of the worst at posting this 'stuff' on social media. Just because your local DMV office says one thing does not mean it is factual. Often times laying out the facts in front of a Judge changes everything, ..and at which time the DMV abides by the Judge's orders.

.....well, the original Ford Model A owners manual explains the engine number / serial number question quite clearly.

Here, check it out:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...1&d=1734544898

Brad in Maryland

That word "also"...

I have a streetrod that has a state issued VIN plate on it. I actually prefer that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planojc (Post 2356771)

To get the real answer, check with the DMV office in your state.

In other words "How to open a bag of snakes".

go out to your garage and grab one of those old plates hanging on the wall.
bolt it to your A and dont look back! drive like you stole it.........

the cops will never bother you.

lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by brokenspoke (Post 2356813)

Bingo Brad

Brad is definitely correct -HOWEVER, many States often have rules that contradict what was written in the Instruction Book ...or what the protocol was back in 1931 and before.

Secondly, in Tennessee for example, the DMV often requires a State Trooper to come to a location of the vehicle to inspect & verify the correct VIN is legibly stamped onto the Frame. I have shown many Troopers the exact page that Brad has shown in the Model "A" Instruction Book when they are doing this type inspection. More often than not, I have been met with resistance from the Trooper. Their interpretation of that sentence is the word "also" signifies there was an additional number stamped elsewhere on the vehicle ( Frame). That is why I said what I did in my post above about instances where the Frame inadvertently was not stamped, ...and as such the word "also" really does not apply in every instance.

At this point, the Trooper generally tells the new Car Owner their options of either a new VIN will be issued for their vehicle, -or the Car Owner can take this discrepancy before a local Judge and explain to him/her why the numbers either do not match, -or why there is only the number on the Engine. Most of the time the Judge rules on the side of common sense when the facts are laid out before them. It has been my experiences that most of the time this is not the case with the DMV. ;) :mad:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planojc (Post 2356771)

To get the current opinion, check with the DMV office in your state.

Unfortunately about every DMV clerk I've ever dealt with has their own opinion and way of doing things. They also get very irate and surely when you ask them to crack open the book or check with their supervisor for the "real answer".

ModelA29 I had to giggle. However, you are right. Whenever I (attempt to) buy a car out of state I call and ask about process. The next day I call and ask the same question to see if I get the same answer.

A friend bought a new car in Illinois, moved to Florida a few years later, then moved back. At he DMV they wanted to charge him sales tax again and it took appealing to a supervisor to escape the second taxing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce of MN (Post 2356957)

The key to that ignorance is it is a 'Sales' tax meant to collect a tax based on the percentage of the Sale. If the person wanting to register it was already the owner, then there was not any Sale to tax.

It is truly amazing how "dumb downed" our society has become where Common Sense is not at all common anymore. I jokingly (-but not jokingly) blame it on Smart Phones, and Safety Stickers that are required by our Government for the general lack of Common Sense. If someone needs a warning label telling them Do Not Stick their Fingers in the Fan, then maybe it would be better if they did so where they would be a walking warning to all their socioeconomic friends of like mind that JR stuck his hand into the radiator fam while the engine was operating and he is now missing his trigger finger. I honestly think this country would see our average IQ levels rise over the next decade or so. ;) :D

Here in Texas, cars made up through 1931 use the engine number as the vin. 1932 and up use the frame stamped number. I just went through the bonded title process here on my Model A and that's what the inspector told me. I assume they do it this way due to the location of the stamped number which is hard to get to on a Model A. Other states may have a totally different process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planojc (Post 2356985)

...... 1932 and up use the frame stamped number.

The frame stamping on the 32 Ford was still under the body. There was no number stamped on the B block. The number went on top of the flywheel housing.
This made more sense because it was swapped out less than the engine.

To a point it's not really that surprising that the DMV, etc. employees seem like they're a little sick and tired of dealing with individuals and their VIN/Serial number problems. There are so many differences and associated problems with all the different makes, number types and locations, fraud, thefts, etc., etc. even with the so-called standard VIN system that has been in use for many years now. Many (or most) have had duplicate numbers stamped in numerous locations for many years. These are referred to as CON VIN's - short for Confidential VIN. See the link below for a rather extensive look at this system. A lot easier to change an engine than a frame - perhaps the frame number on a Model A originally was and should still be considered as a CON Serial Number?!!

-
https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/where-...mber-on-a-car/

true Randy- but you must realize, the people at dmv work for we the people.

we provide their salaries and they sure could be a lot more congenial then they are known for..........

this rings true all across America

The concept of a "VIN" number was not formalized until 1955. This whole engine number/frame number thing continues to be a source of registration irritation for Model A owners and varies by state. The issue is the worst for registering a Model A bought out of state. The simplest route to registering from out of state is to ensure the engine number matches the number on the title. In many states a law officer must physically see the engine number and verify it matches the title (if no state VIN has been assigned). In FL the engine number must be verified by a notary agent. Cases where the numbers do not match are often nightmarish with some cases that can not be resolved due to unrealistic DMV personnel demands. Understandably, the original engine remaining in a 90+ year old vehicle is unrealistic. Engine rebuilders will typically restamp an engine with numbers of the owner's request. The question of legal verses practical is up to the owner - but the quiet advice I always hear is do what is necessary to simplify registration for future owners of your Model A - many not yet born (LOL).

My 30 Coupe was damaged in a fire,and a few months ago I stripped the ruined body off it.It has a super clean frame,with a very thin coating of paint on it.Reading here I got to thinking,and went out to check the frame number.It has none.No sign of ever having had one,and no sign of one being ground off.Frame is too clean,smooth,and straight to have had a spot ground down.This is not the first frame I have had or seen with no numbers.A poultry farmer in town brought his and his families collection of A iron down here from Canada over a 30 year period,I got a half dozen frames from him with no numbers.

I have the original engine in my basement shop. Does that count?

Keith, Canada never stamped the frames.........

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronn (Post 2357789)

Keith, Canada never stamped the frames.........

Yes sir, they did. :D I own one and was recently offered parts off another, also numbered with the CA. Where I'm _unsure_ is when they stopped doing it. Everything I have experienced is with the 1928s.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Back to the original post, I see the poster is from Virginia. If they are looking for the number to register the vehicle, the engine number is the easiest. If that's not available, however, the Virginia DMV can issue a new VIN as a "reconstructed" vehicle. There are some hoops to jump through, but the vehicle will end up with a standard 17-digit VIN and will never be questioned again.

When I moved my car from CA to WA in the 70's I had to have it inspected before licensing. The inspection officer wanted to see the frame vin even though I had a CA title from 1959. When he told me that I went over his head to his superior and he approved the engine number. Needless to say, the inspection officer was really ticked at me, but he had to accept it. He was just trying to assert his influence I guess!!

Mine is on a custom-stamped plate that I found riveted to the frame beneath the driver's floorwood. Just happened to see it as I was replacing the wood after fixing the emergencybrake.

Am trying to register mine and couldn't find the VIN. Engine stamp is a different number than that on the seller's Indiana title which hasn't even a field for engine number. Florida DMV had told me I'd have to remove the body. I second an above poster's point about hopefully having an out-of-state title's VIN matching that of the engine.