Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Hello y'all, riddle me this. Why is everyone out of chassis springs except Eaton Detroit? they all say they have "USA made" springs so why are they all out of em? foundry shut down or what? Me and a friend both need springs, my Pickup has sad springs, and a friend has a coupe that needs em too. I know Eaton is still making springs but the parts houses being out of springs is just weird to me :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

My understanding is that no one is currently manufacturing springs using steel of the same thickness, springiness etc. of the original. Notice on Eaton's website that they advertise 8-leaf front springs, not the original 10. Presumably each leaf is slightly thicker. Model A suppliers may not want to carry springs that don't appear stock.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

No time to pen a Riddle for you, -but the need is definitely there. I spoke with a rep from Eaton spring several times about making the correct front springs, and even though they claim they build their springs off of original factory blueprints, their Model-A front springs do not match the print.

I then offered the correct prints, and they said it was the leaf spring thickness and the costs to manufacture that thickness that made it prohibitive. Nevermind that the rear springs they offer and claim to be correct are very near that thickness, -and if so, it would appear to me they already have the correct thickness to manufacture front springs. My takeaway from these conversations was that as long as they have no competition in Model-A spring manufacturing, then there is not a need to make a correct front spring. My guess is the only way to encourage them to manufacture one to OE specifications is one of the suppliers (Berts, Brattons, Snyders, et/al) places a large enough order (-like 150+ sets) here the need can be filled. Unfortunately I have no idea what the ROI would be for that many sets. Like others, I need several just for current projects inhouse, so I definitely feel your pain.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

I feel the pain!

But! These cars are approaching one hundred years old. Just to be able to still get parts that allow owners to continue to drive our cars is amazing.

I am not saying we need to settle for something. I am saying there are cases when we might just be happy that there are parts available that allow us to keep our cars on the road.

Enjoy.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Sounds like it is time for another manufacturer to spring into action.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

But here is the problem. There has been a mindset over the last decade or two where these cars have either not been restored properly, -or even maintenanced very well, ...and as such, the worth (-i.e.: prices) of these cars have fallen. From my vantage point of seeing/touring with other 100 year old cars, the value of other 100 year old non-Ford vehicles is significantly higher where the owner can justify spending something like $250 for a replacement front spring. It is the present day hobbyists that find it acceptable to substitute inferior parts (-both aesthetically and mechanically) on their car because in their words, -it is only a Driver and they don't plan on showing it.

Also, some are willing to MacGyver their car because they don't want to spend more on it than it is worth. To me, this is a huge disservice to fellow hobbyists and being a poor steward of the vehicle. Kinda like owning an animal that is tethered to a 4' chain in the backyard in which that animal must spend its entire life unsheltered in an 8' radius. Not much of a quality of life for that animal is it?? Kinda the same with the MacGyvered car. ;)

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Brent:

I think you and I are on the same page. I fully agree.

Cost of something needed for our Model A’s has never been the deciding factor on whether it was repaired.

Enjoy

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Hello China.......
I reality 8 v 10 leafs is irrelevant as long as the length and weight carrying ability is the same. Yes you won't want to use one for a fine point car - but those don't get driven to the point ride quality matters.
The suppliers are not out of stock if Eaton has them in stock. They just choose not to have money invested in stocking springs that are probably a real slow mover in the retail market.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

It's hard to do the counterfactual here because very few of those cars have the reproduction part ecosystem the Model A has. An acquaintance of mine owns a 1902 Rambler – 4HP, 1 cyl. When the counterweight came off the crank and tore the engine block apart, he welded all the pieces back together and fabricated a new counterweight. Why? Obviously because he has the skill set and he enjoys it, but also because there is no alternative. No one sells repro '02 Rambler crankshafts and lightly used engine blocks.

From a preservation point of view, the Model A is a victim of its own success and particularly the view in the hobbyist community that "keeping them on the road" is the paramount goal. I don't think that same pressure to get the vehicle mobile – by any means available – exists for other antique collectors.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

I notice Model A's are getting a bit more difficult with each passing year.


I hate to say it but I may have to throw in the Model A towel soon,,,not an easy decision because I sure like the little buggers and enjoy them:( This is not just because of the continuing parts hassle but I had some health issues these last months I can barely get in and out of them anymore. Once I get in I can't work my leg very well to work the clutch. Forget getting down on the floor anymore the knee they just swapped prevents that,,,plus the hip they said I need now....



I just turned 70 in August, that's the way it is....


We have a '69 Mach 1 I can drive no problem, and the parts quality is excellent and very available for these cars. Parts right down to factory specs. Ford still casting engine blocks for them you can buy thru the Ford Motorsport program over the Parts Counter at your dealership. Unless you get all Roush racing crazy and stay pretty much stock they are cheaper than even a Burtz block for a Model A Ford.


Everytime I walk out to the garage to get the Model A ready to sell I feel half sick, real hard to do it. I guess they are such a small car I can just shove it into the corner of the garage and forget about it! They don't bring very big money anyway from what I have been seeing.


What does all of THIS have to do with Sunny's original post? Kinda not much but then yeah kinda somewhat. Apologies if I got this thread heading the wrong way I didn't mean to......

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

When Bob & Jen got that car back into the States, he called me asking how I would repair it. We have spoken many times regarding that project, -amongst others.

Yeah, it does make us wonder if reproduction parts were not so readily available, would forcing the Model-A hobbyist to actually restore in lieu of replace make for a better car??

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

I just hit 74 and bought our A just over 2 years ago - why? Bad back I wanted something lighter/simpler to tinker with. Still have our 32V 1998 SVT Cobra and my 650 hp GT1 Mustang - That one's going to need to go since getting in around the cage is tough.
The early 32V Mustang stuff is getting harder to get but yes there are lots of early quality Mustang parts. I've been amazed at the poor quality of replacement A parts - The majority of replacement parts I've purchased all needed a little work to get it to fit/work correctly.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Re arc an original.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

You got that right, I think half the reason is that most manufacturers don't know or care the square root of jack (bleep) about A's and the quality of the original parts.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

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Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

I hear ya. Not to take away from the original post I guess to sum up my thoughts, why can't they make GOOD Model A Ford parts? They do for the early generation Mustangs? It would be a lot simpler.

Maybe it is economy of scale, there are just a lot more early Ford Mustangs being restored:confused:

You can buy a reproduction Mustang front fender prep it paint it bolt it on and go. Try doing THAT with a reproduction Model A fender! You'll have as much or more money in the thing trying to get it to fit!

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

It is the ROI. It is the cost of creating exacting details. Since you mentioned the fender, Bob's dies are worn beyond repairable. Bob is over 85 years old now. I hope he lives well past 100 years old, but the reality is the ROI for Bob to make new dies will never be there. So who else is willing to step up? I have no idea costs to manufacture dies, but I could see it costing over a quarter of a million dollars to make all the dies needed to stamp both front fenders. Think about this. If you have $125k in the left side dies, with a life expectancy of those dies stamping 1,000 fenders before they need to be reworked, then the manufacturer would need to add $125.00 to the cost of each fender just to break even, -not counting the cost of that money over the 10-20 years it will take to sell that many fenders. Stamping a Mustang fender is likely easier to make than stamping a Model-A fender.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

I've been in the Model A parts and component rebuilding/restoration business for 46 years. From day one, customers have compared current retail prices to "what I used to pay for parts from JC Whitney", etc. Many have had no problem springing for Whitewall Tires, LeBarron Bonney interiors, etc. but don't want to hear about how much it costs to properly rebuild a front end and their mechanical brake system. The 1902 Rambler story told elsewhere here is a good analogy. Nobody makes those parts because there is not enough demand. There are several manufacturers who make quality Model A parts and still more who will make "just OK Model A parts" because many people will be only too happy to buy them and think they got a deal. Then, there's the assumption that if someone can make a "so-so" part for $10, then someone should be able to make that same part 100% correct for $12. The frame of reference always seems to be how much the cheaper (less than good) part costs. Re-read Brent's explanation about fenders to get the other side of the story.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Many of the wonderful assortment of reproduction parts available to us have gone or are going away because of reduced demand and increased costs to manufacture. The reproduction parts market is retrograding back to what is was near its infancy. I do believe there are not enough salvageable Model A's left to bring back the demand for the plethora of restoration parts we enjoyed just 20 years ago. What will continue in my opinion are the common parts we need to maintain our Model A's such as ignition, tires, tubes, water pumps, fan belts, gaskets, etc.

The emphasis for restorers today is salvaging original parts, even those in horrible condition. We are blessed to have craftsmen using modern tools & techniques that can make miracles out of bent, cranked and corroded metal.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

I think that demand is definitely down from when I got into this hobby in the late 60s, but I think it’s as much demographics as it is supply of restorable Model As. I think if we look around at club meetings or tours we’ll see that a substantial number of us are at the more mature phase of life, whereas years ago it was the same folks, but we were a lot younger. With age I think comes less willingness to embark upon a full resto project. I know that the car I’m doing now is very likely the last one I’ll restore. If I get another one it will be already restored or an original driver.

When I got started maybe half or better of the club members were restoring cars, now in our club of over 100 member families maybe a half dozen are currently restoring cars. It’s an evolution of the hobby. And I’m not seeing a huge influx of younger folks (including, regrettably, my own kids), too much competition for limited time.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Is it believable that these replacement parts would become available again if the hobbyist would pay more money making the risk worth the effort?

With regard to your thoughts about Craftsmen using modern tools & techniques, one of the struggles I have seen is many Model-A hobbyists apparently just do not have the skillset to do even the most basics of maintenance & upkeep. As a young child in the 60s and 70s, I remember going with my father to club member's houses where many of these hobbyist/club member had a small lathe, milling machine, compressor, welder, etc. in their garage where they could restore/repair worn Model-A parts. In the last couple of decades or so, I think it became easier for the Model-A owner to buy reproduction parts vs. restore/repair original parts. Nowadays, it appears that very few hobbyists have even the basics of tools to do restoration work much less have the shop tools. Am I wrong in this??

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

From the perspective of a young 20 something, the classic car hobby is not something that many are really in to. Young people like looking at classic cars and sometimes seeing people on YouTube fix them up, but actually fixing an old car does not provide that instant gratification. Small sample size, but the two young people (under 30) that I know that have classic cars have someone else work on them. It also doesn't help if at some point in time one of their family members sold or gave away their tools because they had no use for them.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Other than the compressor, which I think is still pretty common in home workshops, I wonder how many of those hobbyists you remember both acquired and learned to use those machines specifically for the purpose of pursuing the hobby?

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. One of the club members here worked in software for his entire career, and then after he retired he re-trained as a machinist at the local vocational school and bought an entire shop's worth of tools. That guy is my hero. But how common is that degree of dedication, is my question.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Re: replacement bodywork: I have seen new technology that utilizes computer-controlled power hammer on a robotic arm (more like a frame) to form sheet metal into complex curves. The demonstrations online have shown fairly small pieces, say 12” in diameter, but I presume this technology will continue to advance. I won’t be holding my breath for the day it can work Model A gauge steel for fenders, and I won’t predict what the cost of production will be. I hope I see it and can afford it in my lifetime.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

No, I think the major difference back then was many hobbyists in each club came from an occupation in the trades industry where they had some sort of a background from working around machine tools. Sometimes it was just as a maintenance mechanic at their workplace. Many hobby shops back then possessed tools made by Atlas, S Bend, Logan, etc. that were available thru a Sears or Montgomery Wards catalog. Not everyone possessed skills HOWEVER there were fellow members in the club that helped out other members restoring Model-As. The local Model-A club was a necessity for the networking to assist someone getting a car restored. Yes, the dedication to see a project from A to Z is very much lacking these days.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

As to mike1291 point
Yes the parents or grandparents have sold or passed along the machinery

I have witnessed this and I will only make this comment
The time to express interest in the hobby is before the parents stop using the machinery

John

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Time for the bombshell, I'm 22 and I want nothing to do with modern anything. I do all my own work and am the local model a mechanic. I am working with some friends into starting to reproduce some A components that need to be made again. I also am about to go into the babbitting business as I am about to buy a lineboring machine. I got into the A Models as a relief from the insanity of modern cars. once I sell my 53 chevy I will only own and work on A model Fords.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

I was 6 years old (-now 64 yo) when my father and several car friends decided to form the Houston Texas Model-A club. Dad was 34 yo at the time and was in his late 20s when he bought his first Model-A to tinker with. My recollection was that most of the club members in the late 60s were older. Now remember, -an old person was in his late 50s during that timeframe, -and by the time they were in their late 60s, they were no longer driving and many were already living in a nursing home. So during that timeframe, we did see a few young 20s aged hobbyists, but there is likely more 20-ish ppl now than there was back then.

The irony of this statement about being gifted tools is in the earlier days, I would venture a guess that most Model-A hobbyists I knew never actually had their tools given to, -or passed down. I know my dad never received any of his father's tools, because my grandfather was still using his. My father used Craftsman or SK however when I was wrenching, I started by buying a basic set of Craftsman tools, and then started upgrading to Snap-On bought off of the tool truck. The main reason I did this was because Dad was still using his tools. Young hobbyists today need buy a basic set that they can afford and build from there. Too often today, a couple of different 20v electric impacts and a torque wrench tends to be the priority over a full set of hand tools.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Almost all of my tools have been acquired used, via estate auctions and online ads. Welding gear in particular is very common in estate auctions and quite affordable. Drill, shop, and arbor presses are readily available used and mostly self-explanatory. Same for parts washers, bench grinders. Decent compressors are common, particularly if you're able to give them a going-over because they lead hard lives. Belt and disc sanders in my experience tend to be worn out if you buy used. Bench vises go for big $$, people love a vintage bench vise.

From my perspective, that's more or less the ceiling for the kind of shop you could assemble inexpensively and without mentoring. Beyond this, for lathes and mills, the equipment is definitely available but almost always needs to be restored. Plus you'll need to buy missing parts, and then you'll need a club member to teach you how to use it. But it's definitely doable. I've had the opportunity to buy Bridgeport mills at a reasonable price several times, but I've passed because (a) no space and (b) not cost-effective at this point. They are out there.

I suppose the point of all this is to argue that there's nothing specifically preventing today's hobbyists from outfitting a respectable shop other than (a) you do need the space for it, which isn't much but might be an obstacle for some; and (b) the work has to appeal to you.

If you can afford to buy the car, you can afford to outfit the shop to repair it. But in terms of what you're spending your time doing, you have to want to spend, e.g., 50-100 hours buying and restoring and learning to operate a South Bend lathe. That activity has to be fun for you on some level that's independent of your desire to make the tool to fix the part to drive the car.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Similar to Brent, I had to start building up my own set of hand tools because my dad was still using his at the time. I started with 70's era Craftsman because they were pretty much the go-to at the time. A few Snap-Ons and SKs from the local distributors.

As far as machinery, I have always been interested in both woodworking and in metal working. Early on I determined that the two in the same shop were really not compatible, so after I settled down in a house I elected to build up a set of pretty decent woodworking machinery - table saw, jointer, planer, shaper, band saw, drill press, plus a bunch of hand power tools like routers (at one time I think I had six!).

Fast forward forty years, I'd built two houses and all the cabinets for one of them, and I found that I just didn't have quite the spark for woodworking and cabinet making as I used to. So I sold off some of the more esoteric machinery to create space and decided to get into metal working. I looked at used machinery but eventually elected to go with small Chinese metal lathe and vertical mill, which I'd upgrade if I ended up wanting to. Taught myself to use both because - well, there ain't no more machining classes at the local junior colleges. Both have turned out to be way too small so I will eventually upgrade to a decent Bridgeport-style knee mill and a decent engine lathe. Bought a used gas welding rig but could not find a decent used wire welder so I bought that new. All my precision measuring equipment was acquired used locally thanks to manufacturing moving overseas. (As recently as the late '90s, we still had robust precision manufacturing here in Silicon Valley. No longer.) Then, I got back into Model As after a long hiatus, and here we are today.

Regrettably, I don't think either of my kids or kids-in-law have inherited the same avocation, so when I get out of this then likely all will go external.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Back to the original question. Is A-Springs in Connecticut still in business?

I tried their website and I got some weird text in Portuguese, I think. I didn’t try their phone number.

David Serrano

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Out of business for at least the last year.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

He went out of business several years ago. I think 2019 or 2020 sometime around there. He was having issues getting the spring leaves made.

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

So, we lost another resource recently
He had mountains of original Model A parts stashed in his yard, garage etc
Of course some parts were not restoration candidates but many were

So he became sick and passed away
During the local club’s visits his Son started up with taking over everything and making the swap meets

Well that didn’t last long and most of the parts went to scrap

Some of the machinery went to folks who will use it

John

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

Very sad to hear this and another example to enjoy everyday we have and drive the model A.'s enjoy them now!!! Unfortunately the next generation may not!!!

Re: Why is everyone out of chassis springs?
 

I have the Eaton new front spring and it lowers the loaded front end somewhat whereby the axle doesn't sit about half way below the front splash shield.
Perhaps we'll try adding a small (beveled) original leaf to the top to get another 1/4" of ride height.