Title for car where engines are swapped
 

I am in Florida. I just purchased an A model that was under restoration when the owner died. The car came with a title from the seller's widow. The deceased had the engine completely rebuilt by a reputable builder.

The car is not a good candidate to be restored to a very nice car however it can be reassembled into a good driver, that will be presentable.

I have an good engine that I purchased from a guy that bought an A and just used the body for a Hot Rod and sold off the drivetrain parts.

I want to put the used engine in the car and save the rebuilt engine for another project.

This brings me to the questions. When I change the engine, the serial number on the Title will not match the car.

When I put the engine in another car I am building from spare parts and pieces, which has not been titled "Bill of Sale only" The engine number will show up in the Florida records as belonging to the other car.

What do I do about this? Do I contact DMV and tell them I am changing engines and need a new title or what?

Then what do I do about the other car when I get it put together and ready to title it.

Should I grind off the numbers on the two engines and swap the engine numbers. Can this be done.
This has to come up in the A model World all the time as engines are replaced frequently but I have never been in this situation.

Your help in steering me in the right direction is appreciated.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Yes, grinding the old number off and stamping on a new number can be and is often done. Private rebuilders and “production” rebuilders in the past did it.

Legally, I cannot and will not comment. Ethically, you are stamping a number of your choice into a hunk of iron that you own. You are not representing anything other than that engine with that number is installed in the vehicle with that title. I personally have no issue with that. I’d suggest that you grind all numbers, though, so you don’t have two blocks displaying the same number.

This issue has been extensively discussed on this forum. You can get the proper Model A stamps from restostamps.com, or they occasionally come up on EBay.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Should I grind off the numbers on the two engines and swap the engine numbers. Can this be done


many on here will say no. I would do that or place a vin tag on the firewall with the title number, for inspection. Florida does inspect.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

I'm doing something similar in NC. The procedure you go through here is for an "incorrect title." Basically you say "I have the title for this car, but something on the title is incorrect and I need an updated, corrected title." The NC title manual published by DMV has a specific procedure for updating the VIN when the VIN is on the motor. You have to produce documentation showing what happened to the old motor with the old VIN (you took it out and you still have it) and where you got the new motor with the new VIN (bill of sale from the guy who sold it to you). You submit the documentation and hopefully they issue a new title with the new VIN.

You'd have to figure out the equivalent of this process for Florida.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

with that said Alex............it can become a can of "worms"

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

If the engine number on the car you just purchased matches the frame number, I would leave it in that car. Matching numbers are a real plus! Not many left.

As RONN said. You could be opening a real can of worms.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

My engine that matches my title, had a crack in it when I tried to rebuild it. I rebuilt a different engine, but I kept the original block which will go with the car when/if I ever sell it.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Maybe a dumb question, but why not just apply for a 17-digit VIN?

One of my cars came from a nation that required 100% 17-digit VINs, so it had one assigned. I can swap out the engine every day of the week and no one will care because the VIN won't change.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Does your title match the number on the frame??

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Question:

Suppose I buy an engine from a Hot Rodder. He keeps the title and gets a new title for his hot rod using the engine number on the title.

Now I have an engine with "his engine number" on it since he has the title.

Now I put the engine in my car or one that I just built from parts.

DMV titles it with the engine that I have.

Who gets to keep their car if the DMV notices the numbers are the same?

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

See if your DMV will check if the number is registered, I have asked and found out that one engine I have has a “open” number, another car that just had a bill of sale they check the national database to see if that number belongs to another vehicle.
The first person to register with that number probably gets it.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Please note that if you file or grind off the original engine number some DMVs will notice that and you may have problems. Some DMVs will require that you show them the number on the frame. If it does not match the engine number you will have a problem.


Bob

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

I recently went to the Virginia DMV to ask about titles that don’t match the engine, and I was told the following by a “worker bee” and a manager. Neither would give me anything in writing. So, if I purchase a car whose engine number does not match the title, I would expect the Virginia DMV to give me a hard time about it, and I would expect the DMV person that I end up dealing with at that time to have yet another interpretation of the law. Consequently, I’ve passed up several potential Model A purchases because of the foolishness below.

- After purchase, the DMV will research the car’s engine number on the title and the engine number in the car to see if they can get any correlation

- The DMV will not research engine numbers on title and in car in advance

- The DMV cannot guarantee a title transfer will take place

- The title should always go with the engine; I didn’t mention that the frame should have the engine number on it too—sometimes that rusts away and cannot be read anyway

- The manager suggested I talk with a lawyer or contact Facebook groups—this is simply “amazing” advice from a presumed DMV expert

- The manager told me if the engine number do not match in Virginia, the DMV considers it a crime



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Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

It's never a crime to restore/drive the Model A -

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

I don’t know about Model A & T engines but no flathead V8 engine in the 1930’s had a serial number stamped on it. Early Ford’s had the serial number stamped into the drivers side frame rail in three different locations. The original transmission for that frame would have carried the same serial number as the frame.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Get the state to assign a VIN. Just tell them the engine in the car is junk so you need to replace it.

Assigned VINs on anything from the 60s or newer are value killers. On the A it doesn't seem to matter.
People talk of matching numbers. I'm in the realm of neat but who cares it's not something worth lifting the body to see if it's true.
My car has an assigned VIN so I'm able to swap engines at will.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

50Trucking, I think you are going to be OK with this car. I live in Florida and wanted to purchase a Model A that had a title that was from another state and a title number that did not match the engine that was in the car. The owner had passed away. What he had done was move the car from another state where the car was restored, engine changed, but continued to renew the old registration by just sending the paperwork back to the DMV with payment. Therefore, I am purchasing a car where the paper work does not match the car I am purchasing! Florida has form that reflects a problem with the VIN, that the car has been inspected by a Florida DMV agent and he certifies that the car is as described by make, model and color and that the seller has been checked out and found to be correct. The agent actually goes to the location where the car is garaged. Go to the DMV and talk with them and get this form filled out, and arrange to have the car inspected. Good luck, Ed

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

The serial number on the T & A engines WAS the serial number of the car. The B engine still had the serial number pad but the actual serial number was stamped onto the cast in pad on the top of the flywheel housing. The V8 flathead also had the serial number on the flywheel housing.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Minor correction. The V8 serial number was on a pad on the transmission case and not the flywheel housing (in addition to other locations).

Charlie Stephens

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

The last thing I would do, or suggest someone else do, would be to grind off the old serial number and stamp in a new one. To the best of my understanding (I haven't had reason to research it) it is against Federal law to alter a VIN (serial) number. Your next problem would be with your state DMV when they looked at the car and said "this has been altered, they must be trying to hide something". The numbers were stamped into an "as cast " pad which would not be the surface left by a grinder. The "font" of the numbers was also unique (but they are available). At that point the DMV would probably remove the body and look at the serial number stamped into the frame (at your expense). If the vehicle had been stolen sometime in its life it would be returned to the rightful owner.

I encountered a similar problem in 1971 on my '31 RDPU. I wanted to change engines and have the paperwork revised to match the new engine serial number, which is what was done by the DMV for many years. I was told the policy at the time was to no longer register by the engine number but to assign a number and attach a plate to the door jam (see attached photo with a couple of blanked out digits) A plate with the same number was also hidden elsewhere on the chassis. Call our DMV and see what they recommend.

Charlie Stephens

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

In Australia, we do not have titles for cars so this thread and any other mention of titles leaves me thoroughly confused, especially when I am told "Don't worry about that - I can get a title for you."
Your system seems very complicated and cumbersome, just like your land titles system. Has there ever been anything suggested in your country to streamline them?

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Yes it’s been though about ! But then we would have millions of attorneys on the unemployment line !

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

So who exactly is from the DMV is going to come to your house, pop the hood and examine the serial number(if they even know where to find it) and double check all this stuff? Are you planning to register the other car too? If you got stopped by the police and they want to check the numbers, you think that some 25 year old academy trainee is going to know where to find any of the numbers?

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

As Chesterton said of his fence, I might let you tear it down if you can show me that you understand why it’s there.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Vested interests?
These guys are not stupid - they got through law school. Just imagine the benefits of having them do something productive.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

One of the reasons for all the VIN checking is to get money for the DMV. They do not want a $100K hot rod registered as a $10K Model A. They also do not want people re-registering stolen vehicles.


Bob

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

These guys are not stupid



beg to differ...........many are quite stupid. Book smarts does not always translate to intelligence.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

First thing, check with your Florida DMV for their requirements, then go from there. Every state is a little different.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Just a note, some states require the auto theft guys to check on the vin numbers to make sure that it's not reported stolen. For this reason, they frown on re-stamped engine numbers.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

The auto theft special deputy sheriff of the seller’s county inspected The Wretched Roadster because the title number did not match the engine number. With the seller, the floor mat and floor boards were removed and he crawled all over searching for a number in the frame, to no avail. Finally, he looked up the title number and the engine number and found neither corresponded to a stolen vehicle. That, plus the thick folder of old receipts and photographs, and the seller’s anecdotes was enough. No metal tag was issued. Instead the Sheriff’s Department signed an official document allowing the old out of state title number to be used for a new, Texas title.
Back at the motor vehicle bureau for the third time, there was some discussion about the old title having the name of the seller’s long-deceased brother on it. We also had to go to a truck stop to use the state-inspected scale and pay $14 for an official document stating the weight. There was at least one other wild goose chase item but I don’t recollect just what it was. Finally I had my temporary tag in hand and returned to the Wretched Roadster in the parking lot to find someone had scratched the paint on the driver’s door with (presumably) a key. And unlike all those Teslas running around, the 1930 Ford did not have 360 degree video recording triggered by vandalism.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

FL does have a strong inspection- TX is diff and a piece of cake. every state varies. In NJ we have no inspection, so do whatever the heck you like! :)

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

So from the point of view of an outsider, it seems to me that the states are NOT united. Hmmmm.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

There is no national law requiring cars to be titled. All 50 states independently started their own titling process at various times over the past 100 years. So every state originally had that more “streamlined” system you were inquiring about, but for some reason they all abandoned it.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

The California DMV used to (and I assume still do) delegate this task to the Highway Patrol. I was lead be believe they knew what they were looking for.

Charlie Stephens

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Interesting.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Not always. When my ‘30 TS was brought into California from Wisconsin the California DMV clerk checked the stamped engine number against the Wisconsin title, then issued a new California title and plates. No discussion of VIN anywhere else on the car. I gather that it’s something of a crapshoot among different offices, some can be really anal and some sorta go through the motions. Since I have the body off the frame I’m going to have an official independent VIN Verifier cross reference frame number, engine number and body number in the records.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Synch, it is always a crap shoot. Sure, each state has their own requirements, but take it one step further, who did you get to work with at dmv? Many love the word NO


but every once in awhile you get lucky and nobody cares.
somebody wrote on the AACA yrs ago that he was from down south and he always took a fine bakery cake into the ladies from dmv......... and he NEVER had a problem. They loved him.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Automobile Vehicle Identification Numbers (VIN) did not start until the 1954 model year. A VIN is unique to each vehicle, and is assigned by the manufacturer, in accordance with Federal Law.

Prior to 1954, cars had what ever the manufacturer chose to put on it, and what the State chose to use. Most States used the motor number.

The Ford Model A, started with Motor Number 1, and was given to Thomas Edison, and went up from there.... There are potentially many cars with the same motor serial number - I'm not sure what states do, if your serial number matches an old Chevy, or Model T, etc.

DMV's incorrectly refer to it as a VIN, and I'm surprised this doesn't cause more problems.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Hello, Pennsylvania usually wants and vin number tracing if you bring in a car from out of state, this is done by a notary, if there is any problem then you have to go to the state police for them to check if listed as stolen, if vin number doesn’t match or they can’t find it a special state issue number is assigned to be attached usually on firewall or door jam .On my roadster it was erroneous listed as a convertible, I had the title changed to that , luckily the engine number match the title.The engine number actually is a late 1930 , car is a 31 and titled as such , has the indented firewall, but as I mentioned before it’s probably a flea market Frankenstein.

Re: Title for car where engines are swapped
 

Model A’s are closing in on one hundred years old. Parts need to be replaced.

The USS Constitution is 200 plus years old. It is about 10% original.

Do you think you local DMV would register it?

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