Cluster bearing solution?
 

It's been reported that the new roller cluster bearings are inferior
in quality and seem to fail prematurely.

Has anyone switched over to bronze bushings instead?
My jeep uses 2 bronze bushings with the spacer in between.

I'm not a big fan of bushings, but they do work, and have worked
in many transmissions of the early '40's

Possible?

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Snyder's reports that they have correctly-made bearings in stock now. I haven't personally verified but that's what they say.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

In October I visited Sammy at Arizona A's. He sells new and used parts for Model A's and T's and has restored many cars and repaired cars for people. I asked him about the modern bearings for the transmissions. He said that the problem is not the bearings but the way they are installed. He said that they are often damaged by installing the parts while the transmissions are horizontal and recommended installing the parts while the transmissions are vertical, and done carefully. One man's opinion, but from someone who I regard as an authority.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I can't see why it would make a difference.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

The roller bearings that are good have a shaft that runs through each roller and engages into the cage at each end. The inferior ones were made with a small nub on the end of each roller which fit into a recess in the cage. My understanding is that these had a very high failure rate. When I rebuilt my transmission it was hit or miss on getting good roller bearings so I ordered from different suppliers and used only the good ones. Considering what is involved with removing a transmission I used NO Chinese bearings roller or main. It is not worth the trouble should they fail

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

The B-7118 and B-7121 rollers were used up into the 50s before they made the gear & shaft change to loose needle bearings. I always check with VanPelt Sales on transmission bearings since he rebuilds them and likely doesn't like problems anymore than we do. He gives the straight answers on this stuff and best parts he can source.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I would be skeptical about any supplier claiming to have quality roller bearings for the Model A transmission. I don't believe they exist. When this problem first occurred a number of years ago one well respected supplier claimed he had the correct bearings because he had been dealing with the same source for more than twenty years. A friend ordered a set and when received they were the same poor quality bearings every other supplier had.

It is difficult to tell good from bad. The attached might help. The ones on the market today will fail in 300 to 400 miles. These bearing are not only used in the cluster gear, one is also used in the input shaft.

The off-shore folks slid these crumby bearings of a completely different design into the Model A kingdom so slick that they didn't even need to use lubrication.


https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-cont...ings-rev-Z.pdf

Tom Endy

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Tom, what are your thoughts on using bushing instead of bearings.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Chevrolet used bushings, nuff said. :)

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Mine just went bad last May but I do not even have 500 miles on the car since it was replaced. I'll keep ya'll informed when this new one goes out.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

There are those (myself included) who leave out the "spacer" normally used between the long bearing and the short bearing in the cluster gear. Instead the space is filled with THREE bearings.

I can't remember if the three are three shorts, two shorts and a long, or two longs and a short. I think the last.

Still, bad bearings are bad bearings. Perhaps more reduces the loading, but also increases the chance of failure of one by 1/3rd.

Joe K

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I have heard the same.

I recently rebuilt my transmission and used bearings that another club member gave me. I repaid him by buying a set from Snyders. (after I put mine all back together). I looked at them through the plastic wrapping and they looked correct; I.E. an actual axle on the rollers rather than hollow rollers like the notorious bad ones. I cannot say for sure, but they did look better than the bad one on my input shaft that actually fell apart. For me it wasn't the cluster bearing that "blew up" but rather the input shaft to main shaft bearing. At least they lasted about 3k miles and about 3 years.

It is no picnic to get to the transmission just to change bearings, which itself is a pretty easier task.

Maybe someone who knows bearings can buy one from Snyders just to see how they look.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Bushings would probably work just fine. I would use them before the bearings that are on the market today. Where do I get them?

I have a few used serviceable bearings that I have been using. When they are gone I am done overhauling transmissions unless somebody starts making the correct ones.

Tom Endy

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Luckily I never ever throw anything away so I have enough good used Hyatt spiral roller bearings in stock . I am rebuilding the front end of a 1930 AA truck . I needed the T 105 king pin thrust bearing . I found that they are no longer made by Timken ,Skf or Bower . and are no longer cataloged . I was lucky to find one supplier who had several hundred in stock . Sammy at Arizona Model A has NOS AA king pins but no bearings so I have bought him a whole bunch of bearings to bring out when I visit with him in late Jan . Anyone needing king pins and bearings so call him .I think the bushes are the same as wrist pin bushings . To cut to the chase can anyone tell me the part number for the Hyatt or compatible bearing I might get lucky here in England .I will let you know .

John in freezing Suffolk County England .

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

It's not possible to tell "which" of the bearings that Snyder currently offers from the pix.

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/c...cts/A-7118.jpg

I suspect given the "stand-apart" followed by three rollers that this is the bearing with the "nubs" on the ends of the rollers. If that is the case then this is not the right one.

The pix might not be the right pix. The bearing clones are close enough in general appearance so Snyders might not be sensitive to the detail.

A swipe with a file on the end-circle might tell you all you need to know (hardened v. unhardened.)

Joe K

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Poor quality failed bearing vs correct. Took apart correct to see difference. Have seen one other type of defective bearing. It had a small nub on the end of the roller that fit into a small recess in the cage

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I don't have the dimensions handy but see if you can find the right sleeve bearing here: Perhaps substitute several shorter ones for a longer one?

https://www.mcmaster.com/bearings/mu...ve-bearings-8/

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Since I'm a Military jeep owner ( yes, it's a Ford!) I'm used to using
bronze bushings. Although the T-84 transmission used is not the strongest
transmission, Bronze bushings in their cluster gave little and rare trouble.

nkamiar-I was thinking of the same guys-McMaster-Carr as the place to get
bushings. I have dealt with them before, if you ever re bushed a Zenith throttle body
they have the correct bushings as well.

We all know the real fear here: Pulling the motor or rear end out to do something over again in such a short period of time really stinks!

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Here is a pic of an NORS bearing that I picked up at Hershey a few years ago.

https://beamingpix.com/images/2022/12/14/IMG_5714.jpg

As 'Ordsgt' indicated, this bearing has the roller machined with a tip on the end that fits into the female hole on the end of the cage.

The failed bearings I have seen have a recess cut into the roller and the cage has 'tips" stamped into the ends so that the male end is in the cage and the female end is in the roller.

That said I have a Hyatt Bearing that is made with the male in the end cage and the female in the roller. it's a very well-made bearing, think I got it from Berts as a used bearing. Here is a pic, you can just barely make out 'HYATT-USA'

https://beamingpix.com/images/2022/12/14/IMG_5715.jpg

As far as what Snyders has, I would call them if I needed bearings.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Someone elsewhere indicated that for the "teat/tip-roller" bearing, the cages can be either "hardened or unhardened." In the case of the unhardened circle, the pix showed the needle "wearing" into the circle - until it released.

That may be the difference?

Can you check the FOMOCO needle retainer circle to see if it is hardened? (I imagine it is. FOMOCO back in the day was like "Kenmore" was to a later generation of Sears Product buyers - fundamental but solid in its conception.)

Snyder's you do get the advantage of "return if not satisfied for a full credit." Of course getting to that point can be its own challenge.

Joe K

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

As far as the transmission main shaft Ball bearings I found the Chinese manufactured bearings were about $12 each. American made Federal or Timken were about $35 each. No record of American bearing failure in Model A trans that I could find but many with the Chinese. Sometimes the money you think you are saving is not worth the risk

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

For years Briggs & Stratton has made the 8 HP "F-head" horizontal shaft motor. Applied to pumps, chipper/shredders, rototillers, generators world wide.

Now - with our "new" economy - Briggs & Stratton is now "outsourcing" many parts of the F-head engines. You buy B&S replacement and more than likely the part is made in China.

The Chinese are smart. When you sign on to them, you also sign over rights to your design. Thus the Chinese are made free to compete against the American sourced product and frequently on the same marketplace.

You go on Ebay and you'll find two levels of carburetor for this 8 HP B&S. Either "original" probably in a B&S box for about $87, or the "Chinese clone" for about $12 - shipping included.

I've gone both ways. The B&S version ALWAYS performs as it should. The Chinese version may or may not perform. I remember finding one of the Chinese clones with the main jet adjustment TOTALLY missed the internal port hole. The Chinese quality is just not there and there is no telling the "jet variants" they include with your "destination application unknown" carburetor.

VW gets about $90 for their ABS sensor. The Chinese clone about $14. The two are IDENTICAL except the VW version has "four circles." You can see where the four circles have been "scrubbed out" on the Chinese version. Same device made in the same factory.
Maybe.

OBTW, there are more VWs on the road in China than the rest of the world combined.

Joe K

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

About a year ago,I approached a local bearing manufacturer (in New Milford,Ct.) about making new bearings.
After a long informative conversation, the third generation owner said "You mean like these?"and pulled two roller bearings from his desk drawer- one correct that he had as a prototype, and one NOS. First price quoted:$135.00 each. First quantity price break would come in on 100 units, at $90.00. He said there currently wasn't enough demand at that time. His company can be found with a little research, but why ask over and over? Someone. somewhere, has already started the ball (roller) rolling.
Meanwhile, pursuing the crossover part numbers, I found many many applications for these bearings. Looking at suppliers and collectors catering to the specific collectible applications, I found several that had NOSIB (in box), in stock. Hint: Land Rover, in England, NOSIB, script marked, OLD OEM, $12-$35 dollars. Another hint: Binder World, a magazine catering to IH trucks, has several suppliers advertising in it. The Studebaker club, ditto. Do your own looking in this 'vein' something may turn up.
Another note, original Ford cluster gears (maybe not all, and there may be repros) have a straight bore through the cluster suitable for supporting three bearings in a row. A well known new manufacture has an increased diameter space in the center of that bore, not suitable for a bearing. Please check for yourself, judge for yourself, act accordingly.
I hope for your satisfaction.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

To those that had them fail, ... is it going to damage the shaft and cluster gear, or mostly just the shaft?

Regards
Bill

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

My single observed failure took out the bearing (broken needle - seemingly a sort of "torque" failure of the needle itself) which the loose piece in turn scored up the shaft only. The interior rolling surface of the cluster seemed ok.

Your mileage (and failure) may vary.

I have seen shafts of varying hardness. This I learned by doing the "o-ring" modification at each end of the cluster shaft (which obviates the need for the "leak-pruf" kit/cover.) Some shaft are so hard you can't cut it in a lathe with high speed tool, others machine easily with a standard tool.

The last (and possibly the best) of these done was done on a glass hard shaft by bringing it in to the power plant and having the machinist use his "tool post grinder" with a narrow wheel to make the grooves. This shaft was SO hard even carbide tool wouldn't touch it on my lathe.

Shaft hardness may make a difference in the degree of scoring or even its liability to score.

Joe K

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Any discussion of cluster gear bearings needs to be inclusive of the input shaft bearing as it is identical to one of the bearings that is interior to the cluster. I have disassembled at least a dozen failed transmissions and most involved a failure of the bearing inside the input shaft and this typically resulted in such severe scoring of the input and main shafts that they were no longer usable.

The use of a bronze bushing inside of the moderately scored input shaft would permit its continued use where such would not be viable with a roller bearing. I have several input shafts that are in excellent shape except for having scored bearing pockets on the inboard end. I would be interested in any reports of successful use of a bronze sleeve bearing in this location.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

For bronze bearings to work very well, the cluster should have a hole
drilled on it to assist oil entering inside. Does the model A cluster gear
have this? I can't remember.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

"Cleavite" type bushing? Oil/Graphite impregnated will help too.

Actually straight cast iron was used extensively in pre Model A era as a machine bearing. When lubricated copiously the hardness of the iron combined with the porous graphite matrix is quite friction free and long wearing.

One again thinks of that "glass hard" cluster gear shaft of my experience.

Joe K

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Brass, Clevite, and Oilite bearings can work. There two things to keep in mind.
The cluster is always turning when the input shaft is turning. In a low mileage/use car it might be OK.It WILL need good lube. I haven't seen a cluster gear with ready made oil holes. The new manufacture ( might as well say MARK, I've no complaints with them at all) reverse idler I used needed an oil hole added because of the particular year gearcase I used. So I succeeded in drilling one--- after a lo-o-o-ngtime. I used a carbide center drill,and a succession of good quality carbide machine shop grade drills, in a good Bridgeport miller. Tough material. I suspect a cluster will be pretty hard too, either old original or aftermarket.
Second point: There's always been talk about Gear Oil, GL5,GL4, Hypoid, Walmart 90W, molybdenum disulfide additives etc, being or not being compatible with brass. I have learned since 1962, that sulfur does attack brass , in gearboxes, differentials, crankcases, reduction gears,race cars, motorcycles, one lungers,boats, ANYTHING. Be careful where you use brass or its alloys, and what you lube it with. Machining brass actually requires a 'brass oil', no sulfur, usually clear -not dark and murky. Brass machined with sulfur oil degrades really quickly. Also shiny brass turns dark(oooh, patina!)
I redid a Model A trans in 1970. From Joblot in NY, I bought all script Ford gears, NOS shafts and real US bearings, all Canadian Army surplus, in original boxes and cosmoline. It was a perfect,happy, box.I ran it a couple thousand miles and mothballed the car; used it occasionally until 2010. The clutch was stuck, I was painting the frame. While the box was out, I looked inside, a couple of the big outer bearings had condensation pitting.
So I went to my old trusted supplier,still in business, owned by the same family. (Yeah, TRUST US!) Bearings were So cheap! So I redid them all.
After 300-500 miles trans noises appeared. It leaped (never mind jumped)out of second. As the input and cluster bearings failed, the gears cocked, and the whole box was junk. Sharpest teeth I ever saw. Bearings visually looked like poop,no doubt.
I know- we all love that vendor. Buyer beware. YMMV. All that . I know, You never had a problem. Cost of doing business. It was my fault after forty years in metalworking, mechanical and professional restoration trades.
Rant Rant.
Hey, have a nice holiday.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

The worst one I saw was in my Coupe. Steve Becker at Berts said that it was the loudest 2nd gear that he had ever heard.


I rebuilt it in mid 80's with all new Mark gears and bearings.


The bearing that failed ( as in it came apart) was at the front of cluster.


Although the other bearings were damaged just not as bad.


Then the cluster gear started "flopping around" and noise got louder.


When I tore it down the second / third slider gear was badly damaged on its contact surfaces and the matching areas on 2nd gear of cluster were damaged also.

The new gears were destroyed!

The longer I drove it ... the louder noise got.



I think that I might have been able to save the gears if I had STOPPED driving it when noise first started.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

What about cast iron bushings? Would be worth a try if available

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

As has been said, the gears would be very hard. Electric spark erosion would do it but it is not cheap and it is slow. On the other hand, how often would you need to do it.
I'm not game to make a recommendation or otherwise on the suitability of a bronze bearing.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I DON'T understand nor can fathom as to WHY DON'T ALL of the FORD parts specialist/ vendors get together/pool there resources &approach RBC (Roller Bearing Company of America) to re-tool or re-make B7118&B7121?,
Surely there's enough of them/you to make this happen?,
Here in OZ i/ can't procure/source/supply ANY USA made B7118&B7121,
I recently supplied a well known FORD parts specialist here in Victoria Australia with our last remainig stock &another 3pcs, ALL of our bearing company suppliers can ONLY supply chinese made KOBE or if they can procure/source&supply from overseas our costs are between $103-108 AUD EACH!!!!! for both B7118&B7121 SIGH :( !!!!!.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I was going to suggest that too. Dodge Brother also used bushings up until about 1923. Or just install a new shaft and reuse the old roller bearings. How much do you plan on driving it, bushing or reused bearings on new shaft would last for many many years.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I think Snyder's is having good bearings manufactured, give them a call.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I received new bearings from Snyders. Here is a link to a short video of how it looks. Not sure if you can see, but each roller does have its own axle. Not the dimpled things of before. Time will tell, eh?

https://youtube.com/shorts/CkXjQigtyRc?feature=share

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I would drag a sharp file across the edge of the end cages ,if the file does not remove any metal but bounces over them they may be hardened enough to hold up in service.If the file removes metal I wouldn’t use them because the rollers will wear out the end cage holes and come apart from my experiance.I had this happen with a repo drive shaft bearing. .

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I wish those pins would of fit a little bit better than the slop
they have when you roll them. Or is that normal?

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

Berliss USA roller bearing company are getting B7118&B7121 made in china,
I'd hasten to add that the Synders are either KOBE chinese or BERLISS chinese made.One of our suppliers can supply ex overseas in UK made&USA HYATT&BOWER BUT the $ is prohibitive for us to sell direct to you the restorers,
I'm assuming that there's not enough demand or interest in the USA roller bearing companies to manufactuer them anymore?.

Re: Cluster bearing solution?
 

I believe that is normal. As it is with the Hyatt spring type equivalent.

Joe K