Fine point judging...a simple question
 

The thread on non-traditional colors had several posters making the point that cars with these sorts of paint jobs would be devalued by purists. I'm curious as to whether or not the number of cars at national meets seeking a fine point judging ribbon are increasing or decreasing.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I don't have a personal opinion on the subject, but when I talked to Ken Davis, who's been in the hobby for decades, he felt strongly that fine-point judging had become incredibly expensive as a pursuit. He attributed this to two factors: first, the number and detail of the factors on which competitors are judged is continually increasing; second, the parts and expertise needed to meet the judging requirements are increasingly rare. So the money and time you need to put into the restoration becomes geometrically greater as time goes on. This doesn't directly speak to the popularity of FPJ, but I guess it would speak to the type of competitor you're likely to see. Again, this was all just Ken's opinion.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I agree that the number of FPJ entrants is less than before. Two reasons: Cost to restore a car to fine-point is much more expensive than ever and secondly, the judging is much more demanding for the owner to meet. I have earned the Mark of Excellence and the Master Restoration awards from MARC, but I will never win the Henry Award.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

Decreasing!Older Generation of Model A owners are depleting-Younger generation are not interested!

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

Just a general comment. I'm 70 years old and bought my first Hot Rod Magazine in 1961. That being said, many don't care for Rat Rods but I feel they came about by increasing demand to build ultra fancy Hot Rods. There are a lot of factors that come into play but just the $$$$ it takes to build anything these days has gone through the roof. Do the ends justify the means. There will always be a minority that have the discretionary income to achieve the ultimate whatever.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

Gary,

Great point however I would not say that the "Younger generation are not interested"...I think I would say that the younger generation are becoming less and less interested as there are still some out there who really does have the interest...just less and less over time.

Pluck

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I agree with the fine point judging comments of Ken Davis, and many others. Speaking as a retired Master Judge, the "specs" for a 500 point car are now almost overwhelming and with the many Ford assembly plants operating during 1927-31. It is extremely hard to pinpoint EXACT items when there were many variations among the assembly plants. Speaking as a purist, Cost being a major factor, we as a group should when presenting a near perfect Model As for Fine Point, realize there are and will be fewer and fewer cars presented. Touring has become the major factor among modern-day Model A'ers and even I say: "If it looks like a Model A - runs like a Model A. sounds like a Model A, then it is a Model A. My opinion and NUFF SAID, Jim Langley...

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I have two fine point MARC Henry award Model A's so I figured I'd give you my opinion. Yes the cost of doing a fine point restoration is high but so is doing a nice, reliable driver. I try to do most of my own work as that is an enjoyable part of the hobby for me. I see less restorers today and more that will simply order out of a catalog and replace than find the original parts and spend time restoring them. Part of that is digging through swap meets to find the correct parts. It boils down to what extent do Model A owners want to take their restoration. To me, it's just as easy to do it correctly and do the best job you can than to do a half-assed job. I guess to each his own.
Another factor I see is that once the national clubs created the driving class judging, many owners did their cars to those standards and were happy with the award they received, usually a higher point total than if they would have entered in fine point.
Bottom line, there is something for everyone in this hobby. I encourage anyone that has even a passive interest in authentic restorations to go for it in fine point. It is a great learning experience and super rewarding to receive whatever award you received on the night of the awards banquet.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

The number of cars in fine point has decreased since the 70s/80s.
The number of 2nd and 3rd place cars have almost disappeared.

The numbet of high point cars has remained anout the same or increased slightly.


See Gary's post

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

Are you trying to make the point that fine point entries are decreasing because of car paint color?

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

No. Read the title of the thread: Fine point judging....a simple question. If I thought that paint color had an influence on the number of FPJ cars, I wouldn't have asked the question!

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

In looking at some older threads posted here, and them some older MARC news letters I have, I came upon the "New Judging Standards" posted in one of them.. If we went back to using them, everyone would now have a Show Car..

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

The level of knowledge AND the level of competition have increased.


Joe k

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

So why mention paint color? That is what threw me off. If you simply asked "I'm curious as to whether or not the number of cars at national meets seeking a fine point judging ribbon are increasing or decreasing." it would have been clear to me. The first sentence about the color of car is what threw me.

No matter it's clear now.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I do not own a car that has won any Marc awards , but I have beaten some of those same cars at other events . It is fantastic to win but as I grow and learn the friendship we make far outweighed any trophy or awards . And truly owning the car is the greatest trophy anyone could ever receive

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

The original question seemed clear to me. What are you trying to accomplish Mike?

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

The truest of all responses...it is not about the rules, it is about our friendships. When my son died three years ago, the first people to call me were my friends from Skyline Chapter...I took James when he was about seven to the first model A gathering/party that i had been to in years, as we drove away from the party, James asked me..."why were those people so nice to us...we hardly know them?" So it goes, truth from the mouth of a child...

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

Denis, Simple answer, over the last ten years the number of cars entered in Fine Point has remained in a stable range of 16 -20.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

When I drive my Model A’s people smile and wave and say things like, "nice car!"
Or "Beautiful car". It makes people happy, and that’s all the judgement I need or want. My cars are refurbished to original so I can fix ‘em and drive ‘em and that defines my level of fun and interest. I have no desire to deliberately seek criticism or argument. That’s just my personal take on judging.

Wandered off the topic there a bit. Sorry.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I think it is great that there are people dedicated to restore cars to as built. It is important to document exactly how the cars looked when they came off the assembly line. But, it is not for me. For one thing I do not have the knowledge or skill or patience. Plus, I would be afraid to drive the car, which is what I enjoy doing more than any other aspect of the hobby.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

For me, restoring a car to something approaching original is showing respect to those who came before us. However, over the years we’ve learned, and I’m not opposed to making some changes to reflect evolution. For example, we’ve learned that the original stamped steel brake drums do not always perform well in today’s environment, so we can replace with cast iron. We’ve learned that the original headlight bulbs can be improved with either brighter incandescent or LEDs. We’ve learned that an additional taillight and turn signals makes us more visible. We’ve learned that safety glass in the side and rear windows improves our chances of less injury in an accident.

I could go on and on. I applaud those who want the intellectual and physical challenge of creating a fine points car. But I’m into driving and enjoying mine on the road, a road which isn’t what existed 90 years ago. So I’m willing to accept some minor upgrades, recognizing that not everyone would consider what I do as “upgrade” as opposed to blasphemy.

My $0.02 worth, since you asked…

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

IMHO, Fine Point judging should not be a competition. It should be, and be treated as validation of excellence and accuracy of restoration. The results should not be treated as "win-lose" but as "excellence - room to improve". There is a very simple upper limit that can be achieved, "as built by Ford".


If you want to express yourself with cars then you have to start modifying and you can stand your car against other modified cars (and perhaps an original). The modified cars should have a perceived improvement over the original and can be judged on how significant those improvements are. That can have first, second, etc as there is no upper boundary as to what can be done.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

One side benefit I see from the whole "Fine Point" movement is an ever more accurate Judging standards book. I do not own a fine point car, but I do use the Judging Standards on a weekly basis to perform accurate restoration and renovation work on my 68C Model A driver car. I for one am glad for the ability to continually upgrade my driver car to better standards...few will notice the improvements, but I know they are there and feel better about driving my car knowing it is a more accurate representation of the Model A as it left the factory.

And yes, I have taken liberties in several areas that divert from the Judging Standards with such things as turn signals, fuses, engine mods and the like...

But for the majority of features of my car, I prefer to follow the Judging Standards in a "Fine Point Way". As was said by Gary Karr above, "it's just as easy to do it correctly and do the best job you can than to do a half-assed job."...couldn't have said it any better myself.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

These comments three years old are just as true today.

I restored my car to suit me (mostly 1995). Reliability counts. Plus I want to drive mine, so that puts me out; changed radiator, fan, took out the multi-disc assembly, overdrive, improved brakes (cast iron), a wiper motor that works.

A gentleman in our local chapter passed away last year. He had a truck that the guys in our club had seen, and they all agreed he likely had $40,000 in that restoration. Let's face it, FPJ cars are a hobby, and an upside-down one at that. I guess it's a matter of taste, and desire. To me the only A might command that type of attention from me is if I ever own a Fridgidare/GE Deluxe Pickup.

I am just happy when people show up for our local chapter events in their A.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

When this thread started, I didn't own a Model A...I was actually in the Middle East on deployment. I had owned a couple in the past, and when I retired in 2021, I bought my first of the two Model As I have now.

One of the things that happened after I bought my "retirement" Model A was buying a copy of the Judging Standards (JS). And whoa...to have a book that had 99% of the "right" answers about what should and shouldn't be on the cars was amazing (my previous Model As looked good, but were not "correct"). I'm guessing that spending a career in the military and also writing reference books myself tended to lend my interest in having a "standard" to apply to my hobby. :)

I enjoyed digging into the JS and volunteered to be an apprentice judge at last year's MARC National Meet in Ohio. That was a great time and I got to meet some great people AND get to get "up close and personal" with some extraordinary cars. That was really neat. (Sadly, I had work this year and couldn't make it to Asheville.)

Fast forward to now. I bought a second Model A (that's how it happens) and prefer driving that one (1931 Victoria) over my early 1928 Australian Phaeton (Tourer, for my friends down under). My Phaeton, however, has a wonderful history (I have been able to talk to two previous owners) and I rarely drive it with the Victoria being much more conducive to driving in most any weather...very unlike the Phaeton!

The Phaeton was last restored in 1983, so she's going on 41 years in her current state. When she was restored in South Africa, the restorer didn't follow the JS, so with the age of the restoration and needing to be corrected a bit, I have decided to restore her.

Initially, my thought was to restore her to "close to fine point" but after I started getting prices on work that needs to be done ($2300 for re-nickeling the radiator shell alone!) I came to the conclusion that if I'm going to commit the finances to properly restore the car, I might as well restore her with the goal of getting her to fine point status.

Much like Gary said previously...I have a hard time knowing what's correct and then putting in all the work and money to not make the car perfect. It's a labor of love, and definitely not a good investment...but then again, very few meaningful things in life are good investments when looked at from a purely financial point of view.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

Dan Fitts over in Richfield told me he’s planning to build a mini nickeling operation in the next few years specifically for Model A stuff, so check back on that later, maybe you’ll have more options.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

Good to know!

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

My personal opinion, I love to look at perfect cars but they are no fun for me. Years ago I had a near perfect MG that I took to shows. I didn't enjoy it near as much as I did before it was restored because I was scared something might happen to it. To me drivers are much more enjoyable.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I agree.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

just a thought as to how modern technology influences "how it was built" ... would a paint job other than the old lacquer disqualify a car from fine point?

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

There isn't really such a thing as disqualification. There are about 20 "areas" in which the car's authenticity is judged. Paint is only one of them. You'd have points deducted as for any incorrect element.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

There are 23 areas. The general "rule" is: If something on the vehicle is indistinguishable from what was on the vehicle as delivered from the factory there would be no deductions (full points). So if the paint looks just like the original nitrocellulose lacquer there would be no deductions.


Bob

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

Locally sponsored meets seem to have a higher number of cars looking for a blue ribbon award, attesting to it's original/restored condition. There seem to be a lack of enough qualified judges at some regional meets.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I recall the RG&JS makes mention of this but specifically discusses clear coat. I don’t have it in front of me to check.

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

As a young 20-something, fine point restoration is not something I really care much about. Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to start putting a V8 and chop my car, but I don't care if the spacing on the stitches holding the leather together on the corner of my hood is off by .010" . Or if the sheathing on the wiring harness is exactly one inch from the terminal box. Had someone from my club hold me for an hour just telling me about it...

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I would like to add a few thoughts to a few comments above. These are just from my perspective as a restorer.

The costs for someone to restore a Model-A accurately or authentically to the JS book really is not that much more $$. What can make it expensive is finding NOS parts to substitute for actually doing restoration. Someone with a basic set of tools, a modest garage, and a desire can produce an award winning vehicle in their own garage and with their own hands.


One of the biggest benefits that I have found from a hobbyist actually restoring to a FP level is the ability to improve their problem solving skills, ...and improving their craftsmanship skills. Possessing those two skills are HUGE for people in this society, and many people lack those skills because they don't practice those skills on a regular basis. Possessing those skills help people succeed in their job, their recreation/hobbies, and their other daily tasks.

Regarding the paint discussion, -it has been my experience both as a judge and as a restorer that the goal is to accurately replicate the as-manufactured aesthetics. Polished Lacquer has a distinctive shine that BC/CC paint does not have. All vehicles in adjudication start with 5,000 points (-expanded 500 pt system) and deductions are made based on correctness/authenticity, workmanship, and under/over-restoration. Too shiny is generally defined as over-restoration. Areas such as firewalls and the bottom sides of the hood pieces were originally unbuffed and should have a dull & slightly textured sheen. Those areas are easy to over-restore with even single-stage urethane paint. Likewise, the fenders and body aprons were originally dipped in Alkyd Enamel which were allowed to drip dry. Those had a deep, glossy shine. Therefore every area on a properly restored Model-A's fenders or aprons should be 'glass slick'. If the easy areas of the fender are colorsanded & buffed yet some areas still retain orange peel, then that is considered under-restoration or poor craftsmanship. Again, doing research as to Ford's methods and trying to replicate the finish from that era enhances someone's problem solving skills. The bodywork, painting, a post-paint details increases someone's skillset. Just my 2 cents...

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

It's amusing to read all the justifications for what your are driving. It's your car, just drive it. No one can guarantee in ten years we'll be allowed to purchase gasoline.
It's not easy to do a strict restoration because of the temptation to personalize it. Maybe you gotta have 'sky blue pink'.... but the next guy ???
The more accurate the restoration effort up front, the more $ellable it will be at the end.

Your responsibility is to drive with a smile, we're only given one ride. $.02









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Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

There are 14 requirements for entering fine point. All are simple to meet e.g. mechanical brakes. See b.t's comment describing the 500 (5000) point judging for the rest

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

I agree with you Gary I had a great time and learning experiences for the next car also the fellowship of the group was great!

Re: Fine point judging...a simple question
 

This is very well said. Before I owned my Model As, I didn't know how to change the oil in my cars. Let alone take an engine apart and put it back together! (Not going to try that with my modern cars, but hey...).

One of my favorite parts of working on Model As is taking parts that would have otherwise been discarded, sometimes not even recognizable, and restoring them to their original glory (photos of two pieces I was working on this morning...)