rust in water
 

I have always had pretty good luck with the water being clear of rust in my cars. I use a bit of soluble oil in them with distilled water as my choice of coolants here in sunny CA at sea level + 384 feet. Then recently I had occasion to examine the radiator water on the roadster and found it low so I added a bit and went for a drive. When I got up to freeway speed, around 55, I noticed an orange froth just below my moto-meter. Got home and checked, never saw it rusty like that. What could have made the engine rust up that fast? I drained it all and filled with vinegar and will drive it a few weeks than flush and do a soda treatment or two before filling for good. Should I be using a coolant instead of water? Been driving this car since 93 with no real rust problems before. (But then that's what the guy aid when his horse died, "Never did that before.")

Re: rust in water
 

What I would do if there was a sudden influx of rust?

I would pull the radiator, turn it upside down and flush as much water through it as I could get. then pull the water pump, check the impeller, and scope down the water jacket in the head and see if you can find where it came from. It takes time for rust to be made, and it takes time for it to break loose. and if you have been running rust inhibitors there should not have been any rust.

Something inside your coolant area has changed, I would try to find out what.

My 2¢

Re: rust in water
 

Lots of people used to use plain water, which created lots of rust, which likes to settle in the lowest place in the block, which is around the rear two cylinders. When you drive at high speed the added speed of the coolant flow will churn up the rust that settled in the rear of the block. The same thing happened to me when I drove faster than 45 for a 60 miles run on the highway.

I wound up removing the radiator, turning it upside down in a large tub of water, and connecting a sump pump to the radiator to back flush it. I then connected the sump pump to the block to flush that out also. With the pump running I also started the engine and revved it up to create some vibration to help dislodge any junk in the cooling chamber.

Here's a link to my thread on the subject, and it has pictures of the sump pump.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ump+pump+flush

Re: rust in water
 

Hi Davey,

1. For the past twenty (20) years, thousands of Model A radiator rust problems, overheating problems, and cooling problems were mentioned on Model A Forums.

2. Ever notice later model vehicle radiators provided and maintained with car manufacturer's recommended Antifreeze do not have anywhere near all of these problems.

3. After over fifty-eight (58) years of experience with 50/50 Antifreeze mixed with either rain water or distilled water in all my vehicles, with no problems, I am not in the mood to try other coolant recommendations.

4. In my opinion, we will always continue to be hear about coolant problems on Model A Forums for the most obvious reasons.

Re: rust in water
 

I have said it before, and will say many times more, good anti-freeze does much more than stop freezing. It has anti-corrosion properties that work with both iron and aluminum blocks. It is a very inexpensive insurance against blocked cooling passages and other expensive problems.

Distilled water, soluble oils, and other magic potions do not come close.:p

Re: rust in water
 

Re: rust in water
 

"Should I be using a coolant instead of water?"

Where you drive, in my opinion, no.

Your engine would not run rust free for 23 YEARS and suddenly form rust out of the blue without good reason. Mr. Wesenberg explained it exactly. Rust had formed and settled in the back years ago when people were running straight water in your engine and it finally broke loose. Rust will not form in a proper ratio mix of soluble oil and water. In your case the rust was already there and mixed in when it came loose.

On the other hand, an oil/water mixture that is too weak can form rust just as a weak mixture of antifreeze to water can form rust. Seen it all my life.

Re: rust in water
 

I take exception to your second last sentence. What proof do you have to support this allegation? I believe it is merely a suggestion used to support the decision for not spending money. Wayne

Re: rust in water
 

Rust is not caused by water, it is caused by oxygen and warmth. Any part of the iron internals will rust if it is exposed to air. Iron and steel submerged underwater will oxidise but more slowly than those exposed to the atmosphere. It is quite likely that rust has formed where there has been an air space in the engine. Antifreeze and other inhibitors prevent the oxidisation caused by water.
For my information: What is soluble oil? It's not something I've heard of before reading this thread.

Re: rust in water
 

The titanic is still there and it has no coolant.

Re: rust in water
 

They make water pump lube with rust inhibitor that you can add to your radaitor when you use water it works well

Re: rust in water
 

I live in California and run a mix of 50/50 coolant or anti freeze in all 9 of my cars. I hate rust in radiators. Just my 3 1/2 cents.

Re: rust in water
 

Can you use the water wetter that the suppliers sell? Will that lube it?

Re: rust in water
 

Re: rust in water
 

Reply No 8 has great merit.

The insides of many Model A radiators look "exactly" like the Titanic ..... no 50/50 Antifreeze and all corroded with barnacles fed by the earth's minerals.

Plus, the Titanic Captain never had a Ship Forum like a Model A Forum ..... as such, he had never been informed and warned about his observing only the tip of the iceberg.

Re: rust in water
 

I didn't know the Titanic had a radiator. :confused: Go figure. :rolleyes: Must have been a Huge sucker.
Better get back to my history books. :cool:

Re: rust in water
 

I think I'll just use salt water in my Model A. It's cheaper than antifreeze. :D

Re: rust in water
 

I have a friend that has been down to the Titanic, it is rusty. He had to get a Russian ship to do the dive from as no American one would. Some silly law we have. I'll pass in the salt water in the radiator. I also should have mentioned that the engine was boiled out before rebuilding last year, according to the guys that did the machining. Maybe not so good?

Re: rust in water
 

Corn, I think I can help you. Have you ever heard of H2O? It’s the chemical formula for water. Have any idea what the O stands for? Think maybe the O stands for oxygen? I do.

Have any idea what the word you used, “oxidize,” means? It means combine with oxygen. You said, “Iron and steel submerged underwater will oxidise but more slowly than those exposed to the atmosphere” Since oxidize mean combine with oxygen, where did the oxygen come from in the water?? Think maybe there’s oxygen in that water???

So, by your own admission you think any part of the iron internals will rust if it is exposed to air but not water? Not sure if the people in Arizona or the Sahara Desert would agree with you. There’s plenty of air but what’s missing there, one might wonder?? Well there ain’t no water .. or very little of it; bone dry as they say!

Here’s how it works:

Specifically, when WATER comes in contact with iron, a galvanic cell is created kind of like a little battery. When H2O .. also known as WATER!! .. comes into contact with iron, the WATER will dissociate (break into its individual elements, hydrogen and oxygen) and then you have free O2 .. oxygen.. running around, which will bond with the iron to create FeO2, also known as iron oxide, commonly called RUST … which is what you see when the radiator cap is removed on a Model A run on straight WATER.

For your homework tonight, look up the word, “soluble.” Then consider the notion that oil and water do not mix. Next, ponder the meaning of soluble and you will instantly understand what soluble oil is.

Re: rust in water
 

Re: rust in water
 

And its full of rust holes:rolleyes:

Re: rust in water
 

Thank you for the unnecessary science lesson. Please read my post again and calm down. Thank you.

Re: rust in water
 

Nobody has answered my question about soluble oil. Just like Mr Grumpy I am aware of the properties of the two and am confused by the name. Any offers? I almost typed any offers gentlemen, but they seem to be thin on the ground around here.

Re: rust in water
 

Corn, when you post under other people's post with contradictory statements, what do you expect? Also, if you will look up the meaning of soluble, like I suggested, there is almost no way you could not understand. Soluble oil is an oil that will mix with water to prevent the water from causing rust.

The following below is an example of a soluble oil that is suitable for use in automotive cooling systems. As you can see, the product also has other uses. Read the whole page.


ChevronTexaco Soluble D
Categories: Fluid; Lubricant
Material Notes: Texaco Soluble Oil D delivers value through:

• No separation — Excellent emulsion even with hard water
• Rust protection for steel work and machined parts even when water-oil emulsion ratios are eighty to one
• Ability to control bacterial growth and rancid odors
• Cooling improved by metal wetting. Also good chip settling.
• Reduced foaming — Possibility of sump overflow minimized.
• Stability in storage — Will not turn rancid.
• Texaco Soluble Oil D is an emulsifying oil which readily mixes with water, forming a homogeneous and exceptionally stable emulsion. It provides rust and corrosion inhibition and foam inhibition. It is used in the machining of both ferrous and nonferrous metals, particularly when cutting with carbon or high speed steel or tungsten carbide tools. It also combats bacterial growth in machine sumps.

Texaco Soluble Oil D is used broadly in machine shop operations as a multifunctional cutting fluid. It is designed primarily to cool and lubricate the contact point of the tool and the work piece. It also prevents rusting or corrosion of the metals being machined as well as controls growth of bacteria, which is a constant problem in soluble oil circulating systems due to outside contamination.

Texaco Soluble Oil D minimizes surface foam and speeds the release of entrained air which could cause pump cavitation. This is a versatile fluid designed to meet many of the situations encountered in the metalworking industry.
Texaco Soluble Oil D is recommended for all metals (except magnesium) where maximum cooling is desired, particularly when cutting with carbon, high speed steel, or tungsten carbide tools.

Texaco Soluble Oil D is used extensively in milling, drilling, gear cutting, turning, planing, shaping, sawing, and grinding operations.
One gallon of Texaco Soluble Oil D for each 20 gallons of water satisfies most cutting operations; however, the add oil to water to avoid forming sticky invert emulsions which do not emulsify properly in water. See the Soluble Oil Mixing Recommendations chart for the proper ratio for the application.

Texaco Soluble Oil D is suitable for use in automotive cooling systems to prevent rust and corrosion. A mixture of forty to one is most often used. However, always follow engine manufacturers recommendations. It is preferable to mix radiator water and oil in a separate container. Additions to the radiator should be made from this container. As with any other "additives", the radiator should be drained and flushed occasionally, since evaporation and leakage cause proportions to change.

Do not recommend Texaco Soluble Oil D emulsions for magnesium. Hot magnesium is a fire hazard when it contacts water. The preferred recommendation is Texaco Alcaid® 19 (ISO 22).

Typical test data are average values only. Minor variations which do not affect product performance are to be expected in normal manufacturing. CPS Number: 220786; MSDS Number: 8625
Vendors: Available Properties

• API Gravity
• Saybolt Viscosity at 100°F
• Saybolt Viscosity at 210°F
• Kinematic Viscosity at 40°C (104°F)
• Kinematic Viscosity at 100°C (212°F)
• Pour Point
• Flash Point
• Sulfur, S

Property Data

Re: rust in water
 

Yep. Wet and warmth. Don't put your A A way in a A heated garidge, it'll rust quicker than normal.

Re: rust in water
 

Model A Forum Radiator Happiness (20) Year Summary:

1. The Happy guys ones are usually the ones with clean Model A radiators who start out either "using", or "not using" 50/50 Antifreeze mixed with rain and/or distilled water.

2. The Grumpy guys are usually the ones who refused to start out with 50/50 Antifreeze mixed with rain and/or distilled water and later become Grumpy Stage One (1) after their engines begin to overheat.

3. Stage Two (2) Grumpy comes later when they have to fork out cash to buy a new radiator.

4. Finally, they get Happy again ..... such is life .... some learn, some do not.

Re: rust in water
 

As far as soluble oil goes, I have seen it work very well. My fathers Model A set idle for about 20 years with a mixture of soluble oil / distilled water. When I removed the radiator, the radiator shop wouldn't charge me a dime because it was clean. I run anti freeze now, but always wondered how much soluble oil should be in the water. What's the mixture? Anyone know??

Re: rust in water
 

A little OT, but "some silly law we have" had nothing to do with the Russians making the dive to the Titanic. They had the technology to do it, we didn't.

http://rbth.com/articles/2012/04/05/...nic_15262.html

Re: rust in water
 

The mixture varies based on the oil company's recommendation. Texaco Soluble Oil D for example is recommended at 40 to 1.

Forty years ago on back and a few people even now, pour in a can of water pump lubricant along with their antifreeze and water mix in their modern car. Water pump lubricant is soluble oil. It is sold in auto parts stores under the names: Gunk, Johnsen's and Bar's Leak.

Nowadays, however, in my opinion, the antifreeze provides enough lube for water pumps and the extra soluble oil is not needed.

Re: rust in water
 

I live in an area where antifreeze is not needed. Never had an overheating problem with soluble oil and water mix and my radiator always stays clean. There is no better coolant than water and antifreeze doesn't carry as much heat from the engine to the radiator as an equivalent amount of water.

Re: rust in water
 

Surely an emulsion and a solution ar to difrent things?

Re: rust in water
 

Yes, maybe not so good. Depends on what they used which might not remove a tightly clinging rust deposit or remove no rust at all. Also, after they've boiled out the block and do the machine work, shavings from the machine work can fall down in the water jacket. If the machinist is not too lazy he will blow it out with compressed air. However, the cutting fluid used by the machinist can mix in with the shavings and fall down in the water jacket and the shavings will tend to lodge in clumps and stick like glue, especially when the cutting fluid evaporates.

Re: rust in water
 

But as shown, it has rust.
https://media.mnn.com/assets/images/...crop-smart.jpg

Re: rust in water
 

Ask Merriam-Webster... And check your spellin' while yur thar. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I didn't see where solution was even mentioned.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of soluble oil
1: sulfonated oil
2: an emulsifiable oil (such as a mineral oil containing a sulfonated oil or a soap as emulsifier) for use in the form of an aqueous emulsion as a cutting fluid, textile lubricant, or carrier for insecticides; also : the emulsion formed from such an oil

Re: rust in water
 

I ran water wetter, for several years, thinking I was protected with an inhibitor, but alas., not so. Now Ive added an inhibitor. However, This is only my observation from my armchair. Just reread your question, and not sure of lubricanting capabilities, as I was looking for rust inhibitors.

Re: rust in water
 

If boiled out means he did the hot tank with lye solution, that has always been my favorite way to clean a block, especially to make sure the inside of the cooling chamber gets cleaned out.:)

Re: rust in water
 

Probable January 2017 Addenda to be added to the former Model A Lubrication Charts:

Note: Forget about the former caution not to clog your radiator tubes by over-greasing your Model A water pump; however, to insure your radiator stays spotless and clean, check your oil to water ratio and grease to water ratio in your radiator often.

All new cars will use this radiator cleaning and rust preventative method soon.

Re: rust in water
 

While you've got your big word book out I suggest you look at the definition of soluble. An emulsion is not an example of something that has dissolved. When you mix oil and water you normally get an emulsion, I was wondering what oil product, known as soluble oil, dissolves in water to make a solution. Your answer has not provided a solution to the solution question and therefore a resolution is still required.

Re: rust in water
 

Easy to detect , look down the hole and see white, it is soluble oil.

I have not used it for years but I wonder if it would not put the greasy stinky scum on your windscreen of your model A as does coolant in an unpressurised system .

Re: rust in water
 

Isn't the white an oil/water emulsion?