Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

I have a stock engine that I rebuilt using a Bill Stipe camshaft and a Dan McEachern aluminum timing gear with matched drive gear. In addition, the thrust plunger and spring are new. I get an erratic rattling noise that appears to emanate from the upper end of the engine. I've used several recommended methods to try & diagnose the problem. I discovered that if I remove the timing pin and insert a plastic wall anchor in the hole up against the timing gear, the noise goes away. Figuring it was a loose gear or broken/weak thrust plunger spring, I removed the timing gear cover and replaced the new spring with a used spring that appeared stronger. I also made sure the camshaft gear nut was tight. I still have the same symptoms. I ordered a new spring and I will be borrowing a spring tester to check for 35 lbs. strength. I'm wondering however if this could be something else because my thoughts are that I'm not pressing on the center of the gear, but the side of the gear possibly changing the dynamics, cocking the gear, or maybe absorbing some other camshaft/lifter related noise. Does pressing on the camshaft gear through the timing hole and stopping the sound definitely indicate a thrust plunger spring problem?

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Sounds like your gears do not have enough clearance between the teeth. Did you check the play between the gears. Some times they do not get the mains on the original center line.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

George, thanks for the reply. Would that be not enough clearance (tight) or too much clearance (loose)? In your opinion what effect is the plastic anchor having on the gear when I push on it?

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

I'm thinking along the same lines as George, except it sounds as there is too much clearance to me, maybe.
The cover has to come off to check that though. It should be in the .004"-.006" range and anything over .010" should/could/will be noisy. Just use feeler strips between the teeth.
The common method for checking the timing gear for the cause of a front motor noise is to put pressure against the camshaft gear.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Of course it is just a guess, but when gears are to tight they want to climb on each other. That would cause the cam to come forward and hit the cover. That is why the plastic works. But they could be to loose, but unless the plastic is putting pressure on the cam gear it would still rattle.

You need to take the cover off and check the clearance.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

This generally indicates a loose cam gear.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Tip: You can check spring strength using your drill press and a bathroom scale.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

From memory, the distance between the centre line of the crank shaft and cam shaft is 4.155" Anyone confirm this?
maybe you should check that. A friend over here had a worn camshaft tunnel machined when he rebuilt an engine intending to put in bronze inserts. The centre to centre distance was out by about 8 thou. This caused all sorts of problems so he made new inserts with 9 thou eccentricity. All good and smooth now.:D

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Katy, interesting tip: "Tip: You can check spring strength using your drill press and a bathroom scale."

When compressing the spring, how far do you compress it to determine if it meets the spec? Completely compressed or some specific distance?

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

let us know how you make out

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Spring spec is minimum what it should be a specified length.
I don't know the spec of the length on the camshaft plunger spring, I assume it would be the installed length. Unless you can find the length or someone posts it here you would have to calculate it.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

tbirdtbird, I will definitely post the fix when I figure it out. I just found this thread and it seems to be identical to my problem. Unfortynately the author: SAJ, never got back with the fix. Does anyone know if SAJ is still active?

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...thrust+plunger

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

He just posted on 9/17/2016.

Bob

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Yes SAJ is still alive and active. Zener, I just replied in detail to your private message.
I stripped my Schwalms engine at 18000 miles due to cracked babbitt in all rods. Replaced the still new- looking fibre cam gear and steel crank gear with a new set of aluminium and steel gears from Snyders. Backlash was very small and too tight, but everything turned nicely without a bind so I went ahead and ran it like this. It now has a lower volume, more metallic knocking at idle. It still has a drilled and tapped timing case and adjustable thrust bolt in place of the plunger and spring. I did this to eliminate the plunger from the knocking problem on the fibre gear.
So I did not fix my rhythmic-knocking-on-idle problem, but improved it and changed its tone! Since I know all is OK inside the engine, I am ignoring the knock and piston slap I can hear when not fully warmed.
Pistons had 0.0035 clearance (dial bore gauge and checked with long thin feelers in case anyone doubts my ability to measure it!!) And pistons in the Tudor engine I assembled for my wife also have 0.0035 and run silently when cold. So I am not sure why my Schwalms engine is noisier. But piston slap might be disguising cam shaft gear clatter when running, which is why I mention it.
Maybe I should have replaced the dizzy drive gear like James Rogers did in an earlier post when he found an incompatible and knocking combination of cam and distrib. gears.
Recently we took out a broken fibre gear from a friend's phaeton and put in an aluminium gear. It was noisy so it was replaced by a woven fibre gear (Not A Macerated one!!!) and is now silent. My Alum. Gear is about as noisy as his was, but only audible as a rhythmic metallic knock at idle. It goes away when I replace the timing pin with a threaded polythene bolt pressing on the timing gear and loading it up both longitudinally and tangentially from friction
Not much help in my final analysis which is why I did not post a follow up.
SAJ in NZ

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

One cure for any problems with the plunger spring is to machine up a spacer to fit inside the plunger to ONLY allow about .005 end float ,that will eliminate any noise from that area.
Lawrie

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Even w/the nut being tight, did you check that the gear is tight on the camshaft?

As James Rogers said in post #6, (answering to,"Does pressing on the camshaft gear through the timing hole and stopping the sound definitely indicate a thrust plunger spring problem?") This generally indicates a loose cam gear.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Here's an update:

Timing gear backlash is .003.

Records from the rebuild indicate the center line of the crank shaft and cam shaft is 4.156".

The timing gear is tight on the shaft.

I received a new plunger and spring. There is no significant difference in the length or tension of the new spring vs. the one that was last installed.

Heard from Dan McEachern, he said he has seen this 4-5 times in thirty years with no solid explanation for it. He suggests like Lawrie that I might try an adjustable or solid cam button.

I'm tired of removing and installing the timing cover, so I have decided that tomorrow I will make an adjustable setup. I plan on threading a bolt with jam nut through the front cover, through the spring, and into the plunger that I will tighten and then back off about 1/3.

I'm hopeful, but I'm also mindful of the fact that SAJ installed an adjustable thrust bolt to no avail and till this day has not resolved his problem. I'm kind of hoping that the dynamics of my situation are different in some way and that the adjustable plunger will work for me.

By the way, I have since found three other threads from the past discussing this same problem and some seem to have achieved success with this method.

I will provide results.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Why don't you try a fiber gear and see if it is quieter.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Is there a chance the drive gear for the dist and oil pump has a problem. Maybe a bad gear, or not enough clearance, or broken spring on the dist drive gear.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

I once had that same problem with a aluminum gear. I put a dial indicator on the outer edge of the gear and found a wobble in the gear. I found out that the gear mounting surface was out of square with the cam. I had it turned square put it back together and the noise went away. What has always puzzled me is that after paying the price for a touring cam. The cam grinder didn't check every dimension before sending me the cam shaft.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Did you lube the face of the round part with the "X" on it real well before you inserted it into then hole in the cover?

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Hi Zener,

A Dan McEachern timing gear and crank gear are usually made to perfection.

Maybe worth checking:

a. Reply No. 20 suggestion .... dial indicator on outer circumference of timing gear and outer side of timing gear can check if cam was made on a Monday, after a weekend barnyard dance with hooch & loose women.

b. Reply no. 19 appears like it could contribute noise.

c. Long shot, but does the crankshaft have fore and aft play?

Just never give up ...... always some human error with man made mechanical items ..... for example ............ non-human made buzzards usually never malfunction because they were not made by humans in a mechanic's shop.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Replies in order:

No. 18 - I have a matched set of Dan McEachern gears that I invested in and I really don't want to go to a fiber if I don't have to. It's been said his gears are usually excellent and more than likely not the problem. However I will if I have to. Question, can I leave Dan's crank gear in and just change the timing gear? I don't think so, but not sure. Then I have to pull the engine to change the crank gear.

No. 19 - The entire oil pump, spring, drive gear assembly was rebuilt when the engine was rebuilt. I haven't dropped the pan to check it. I understand the theory about the cam walking forward at idle because of something tight or mismatched at the drive gear end that's causing it to walk. I do recall it was a tight fit, no excessive wink. Again this is something I can pursue if I have to.

No. 20 - This sounds very interesting to me. I have s Bill Stipe camshaft. It's also supposed to be a superior product. I made the investment to avoid any problems with a bad grind on an old shaft. I will have to check this with a dial indicator. After all I am pushing on the edge of the gear with a plastic anchor ( and not too hard ) to quiet the noise. Do I have a wobble? Maybe SAJ has a wobble and changing the center thrust on the camshaft doesn't resolve it the way pushing on the edge of the gear does? Perhaps I'll find out when I try my adjustable thrust button.

No. 21 - I always lube the thrust plunger, on the face, and in the cover where the spring sits.

No. 22 - There is no detectable crankshaft end play.

Thanks for everyone's interest and support. This is one of the things that makes Ford Barn great. I will say however, this hobby is not for the faint of heart.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Hi Zener,

Your tenacity is admired.

Your hearing "rattling" with "no" pressure on the front outer face of the timing gear vs, "no rattling" with slight pressure appears to imply a noise that is, (as you stated above), generated by rotational "wobbling" ...... but where?

Sometimes in the middle of a crisis, it helps to relax, smile, laugh a little to release stress and concentrate on perhaps what Laurel & Hardy would have done to correct this problem ......... like, take off for a vacation with your wife riding on the front fender, reaching over to push on the timing gear with a plastic anchor ...... ?????

It may help to assume that "everything" is incorrect and perhaps causing this problem.

Usually in the end of complex matters, the problem was rooted in that which we never checked because we assumed it was perfect.

Hope this helps.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

...

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

You can leave Dan's crank gear on and change the cam gears. Do check the fit, they will/may change.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Zener, if you want to install a bolt, a hardened 3/4" will work. As I recall, I ground the boss down some, and tapped the spring/plunger hole. Cross the bolt end for oil, like the original plunger.you can cut the head off the bolt and make a slot, so it looks a little better than a head sticking out. Then of course you can hold the slot with a screwdriver while tightening the jam nut.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

In reply to No. 23 - I purchase the gears directly from Dan.

I decided I am not willing at this point to pursue the remaining variables in this equation.

I installed the adjustable thrust button. I used the largest diameter bolt that would fit through the plunger spring. It is a 7mm 1.0 pitch 50mm long hardened bolt with the head cut off and the end has been slotted for a flat blade screwdriver. I have it backed out about 1/4 turn and there is no noise. I played with it while the engine is idling. If I back it out any further, the noise returns. So although I have not solved the problem, I have (at least for now), stopped the noise.

Here's some photos. Caution: for some, it may hurt your eyes.
Attachment 287489

Attachment 287490

Attachment 287491

Attachment 287492

Attachment 287493

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

In reply to forever4:
"So now it is fixed by pushing on the cam instead of the gear????
What happened to the story about the gear wobble on the cam?"

There was never a "story" about there definitely being a "gear wobble" on the cam.

If you go back and read my original post I state:
"I'm wondering however if this could be something else because my thoughts are that I'm not pressing on the center of the gear, but the side of the gear possibly changing the dynamics, cocking the gear, or maybe absorbing some other camshaft/lifter related noise."

Later on Jim in S.C. stated:
"I once had that same problem with a aluminum gear. I put a dial indicator on the outer edge of the gear and found a wobble in the gear. I found out that the gear mounting surface was out of square with the cam. I had it turned square put it back together and the noise went away. What has always puzzled me is that after paying the price for a touring cam. The cam grinder didn't check every dimension before sending me the cam shaft."

Using a dial indicator, I had checked the runout, there was no significant runout found on at the timing gear. It was then that I decided to install the adjustable thrust button.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Hi Zener,

Glad to hear it worked.

After reading:

"Heard from Dan McEachern, he said he has seen this 4-5 times in thirty years with no solid explanation for it. He suggests like Lawrie that I might try an adjustable or solid cam button."

I had a different Model A mysterious timing gear noise and what Dan suggested "worked" ...... I called him to let him know it worked ....... 30 years of actual hands on timing gear experience means a lot.

Sounds to me like it may be possible that you may wear out and change out three (3) sets of Model A seat covers before you have another timing gear noise.

Thanks for follow-up ....... time to celebrate.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Well done Zener424. Your thrust bolt is neater than mine. I left the bolt head on. I used 5/16 UNF inside the plunger without the spring.
1mm is .040, so for .004 clearance on a 1.0 mm thread pitch you need to back out 1/10 turn from just tight, engine hot.
1/4 turn would give 0.010 end play, which is a lot. Spec is .003 to .005 from memory.
With a bolt head and spanner it is very easy to flex the casing, especially when hot as you seek the start point to back out from. Your screwdriver slot is less likely to overtighten the "no clearance" setting in my opinion.
Great result, but I wonder what the cause was. I surmise there was tightness somewhere in the cam/ distributor/oil pump drive train- just enough to to walk the cam forward against the plunger spring. Did you check the distributor fixing bolt in the head? Too tight could crush the shaft bush just enough to load up the distributor drive, without any other symptoms except "cam walk" I imagine.
Or maybe there is something in the lobe- grind-that-gives-lifter-rotation theory I saw suggested recently elsewhere.
SAJ in NZ

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Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Very interesting solution.

In a similar Model A timing gear noise situation, (which appears to have occurred in the past), if every cam lobe and cam journal checked to be perfect; timing gear and crank gear mesh checks perfect; oil pump/distributor drive gear and worm gear is perfect; plunger and spring length & tension perfect; and everything else checks to be perfect .............. except is it slightly possible that something so simple as the overall length of the cam was never checked after manufacturing same ....... where with a shorter cam the spring is maybe allowed to extend further and not provide enough pressure to prevent "cam walk" thrust?

Mysterious Voodoo and Hoodoo usually have some sort of explanation after researching same.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

That is a neat, useful tip. Thanks.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Let's see what I remember about 1403 chain-drive idler gears ...

A wink of

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

:confused:

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

I felt I should mention, that in researching this topic on Ford Barn, I discovered that there are now at least four threads started by folks that experienced a similar noise problem. In all of the cases, a Bill Stipe camshaft had been installed. I'm not making a direct correlation, nor am I criticizing the Stipe company, or the product (that would be blasphemy!). I am suggesting this may deserve more research to determine if there might be a a previously unknown and unexpected common denominator. 

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Zener. That's interesting. My noisy roadster has a "touring regrind " as described by Ora Landis to me (Schwalms, the builder of my roadster engine). I am not sure if it is a Bill Stipe regrind.I bought this engine from Snyders.
My wife's Tudor engine that I rebuilt myself has a new IB 330 cam from Bill Stipe. The timing gears are silent.
SAJ in NZ

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

You're welcome, I was hoping somebody would come up w/the correct length for measuring the spring pressure.

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Just replaced my very noisy camshft gear . The metal centre had become loose on the fibre outer gear (old style). I have a new MACS plunger and spring but the new spring is way more stiff than the original .Am i right and thinking that the 35 lbs tension is with the cover installed and that is the tension on the camshaft end ???. Or is 35 lbs when the spring is fully compressed ??? . Some of my original springs only one end is "finished" the other end a spur sticks out . I assume this is to prevent the plunger from rotating . So the spring should only go in one way .,smooth side up . Has anyone had a problem with a rotating plunger ???

John in sunny England

Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise
 

Hi John,

In your reply #40, "Has anyone had a problem with a rotating plunger ??? "

Camshaft rotating adjacent to & in contact with plunger ...... erratic noise?

How very observant & most interesting?

Who knows what ever goes on under the covers, Model A "timing" covers that is.

Why "always" no erratic noise after installing a non-rotating bolt?