Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

After watching this I think they could.
https://youtu.be/ckbpq6OoiEY

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

The castings in the video are fairly simple castings compared to a flathead block. A flathead is a very difficult cast. I am sure they (are a lot of others) could do it if they wanted to extend the effort, but it would be very difficult to be cost effective!

During my high school years I worked at a foundry. I would shift weights during the pours and also the clean up after the pours. The guy at the belt sanding the casting brought back memories!

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

With the 3D printers of today and watching how easy it is to make the molds and then make sand castings of them I think it would be fairly EASY to recast flat head blocks. NOW from the financial feasibility aspect I don't know if the cost/profit is or would be worth it. Watching Ferrari cast their block on the lastest "How it's made" (I know its in condensed form) but still very easy and quick process.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

I've often thought of this, and I really don't think it would be much trouble. There are very accurate blueprints of the block. You could even upgrade some of the weak areas. Using computer generated tooling and CNC machining, I'm sure that you could have a much better block made form a better material. I would have Caterpillar do the casting as they have a modern foundry and do allot of NASCAR work. Now if you had a large quantity done you could bring the cost down to a very reasonable price, say 5 to 8 grand apiece.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

It's been tried recently and didn't pan out.

http://www.motorcityspeedequipment.c...ge_id=newblock

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Yeah, J
I've often wondered what happened to the "pan"?
Jim

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

It would not be easy even with modern 3-D printing. One of the biggest jobs would be interpreting and loading all the dimensional characteristics. Something has to tell the printer what to print and where to print it. Too, making the cores and molds would not be a job for the average enthusiast. There are pictures of some of this(casting cores) but I don't remember where I saw them?

Our friend Flat32 could give us the most competent response and appraisal as to the problems involved. Like most jobs, after it is done it wouldn't look like a big deal.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

John Rodeck was able to duplicate a "392" Chrysler block that was in Forged Aluminum for me in 2001 and I thought the cost was very reasonable. I know that the flathead might be more difficult to do but I thought I had seen that someone had or was making them in aluminum now.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

And where can I obtain a set of these drawings?? I keep getting pointed into a direction, then come up empty handed :(
I have considered casting a full scale flathead block more than once. Its not the casting that I see as a problem. It is the expense of machining the casting.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

See the link I posted in #5. There were some proto types built I believe, but the project was dropped.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

See the link in post #5, they claimed to have the CAD drawings and proto-types.

Newly Engineered Flathead Block

Through a combined effort of Motor City and Shadow Rods it’s finally here. A new state of the art Flathead Engine block. Due to health problems back in 2002 I was forced to close shop and pass the ball to Jon Hall, founder and president of Shadow Rods.

Any one that knows Jon knows that he is a perfectionist to the utmost degree. That makes him the perfect candidate to do this project.

First let’s ask- why do a new Flathead Block? Answer: They are just getting too hard to find. On an average you can easily go though 3 or 4 blocks just to find a good one. That can mean endless hours of research just to find one. Purchase it for $100 to $500 just to spend a week taking it apart only to find out the block is cracked or rusted through from the inside out.

Some of the other problems are over heating, oil consumption, excessive crank case pressure, and oil leaking due to bad gaskets and especially bad front and rear main oil seals.

Other draw backs are due to a poor design which include lack of lower end strength due to only 3 main bearings, and insufficient horse power and torque due to poor ports and valve sizing resulting in a very inefficient motor. And last but not least small bores resulting in small cubic inches (STD 239 cu in.)

To do a block and not answer those questions would be a sin, so our new block is most importantly new. Absolutely no inside rust, no trapped or hidden core sand that can be a cause of over heating.

This new motor is designed for modern lip seals (no more leaking). It has heavy duty main caps including a 4 bolt center made out of ductile iron, eliminating any lower end strength concerns. Valve guides permanently pressed into the block drastically reducing oil consumption and assuring a good valve job.

The ports on this new motor were developed by Paul Schalk (Doctor Flow) on the flow bench. The results were incorporated into the new casting eliminating any need to port and polish.

A redesigned oiling system allowing you to run an oil filtration system with out a special pump or hose inside the oil pan.

And finally at last a big bore. 3 ½ (3.500”) finish bore size from the original 221 cubic inch that had a bore size of 3 1/16 (3.062”). That is a 7/16 (.437”) increase giving you with a stock crank 3 ¾ (3.750”) stroke 289 cubic inches with a 4” stroke 305 4 1/8” stroke 316 cu in, 4 ¼” 327, 4 3/8” 339. That is pretty dog gone significant.

DON'T ANYONE GET EXCITED, THIS ALL WENT BELLY UP SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

But I doubt they would be willing to share them.....

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

First making the mold and cores with correct sizes and taking into equation that it will shrink when cooling....
Then its correct material quality and pooring it without to much rejects.
Not an easy job believe me !
Its much easier to cast aluminum then cast iron.
Making core boxes and stuff is needed for a descent cost if going for even low series.
3D printing is for small stuff and one of.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

I understand they had a running engine at one time and even had it in a car and were putting some miles on it. I wonder what the downfall was? Can anyone shed any light on this?

Ted

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

If anyone is interested in more reading and how far this got:

http://www.hotrod.com/news/0603sr-fo...thead-rebirth/

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...-just-wont-die

http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus...d/1281426.html

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...athead.966947/

http://vintagemotorsusa.org/AluminumFlathead.html

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

One of....Ill agree with that :) for any production runs then suitable tooling should be produced.
But I will argue that 3d printing is NOT only for small stuff... and that aluminum does not necessarily make things easier. Sometimes it wil open up a whole nuther can of worms....:D

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Not to beat a dead horse or be contrary
And again IF you watch the process that Ferrari uses today to cast new (and old) engines, it would be very easy to do especially if a CAD drawing exist on a computer. NOW ,the cost to have such equipment OR the wide spread usage of such equipment may be a different story. AGAIN, Ferrari went from a CAD design to a 3D printing of the block (in some form of low heat plastic, then poured a harder higher heat tolerant molding wax in the 3D block for a negative of the block, Then melted out the 3D printed block, then did sand cast molds of the negative and cast the blocks. VERY simple and done primarily by computer and 3D printing (OR Negative 3D printing) and a 3D sand casting mold machine. Watch "How Its Made" supercar series. VERY slick operation. AN within this operation one would think that within the CAD program you could MAYBE make improvements to the original block with respect to thicknesses and such.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Not sure we're keeping in mind the complexity of a flathead block compared to a modern block. If it was all that easy the folks that already have the drawings, the molds and the proto-type engines would be producing them.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Aluminum has its issues to but it aint close to cast iron in being sensitive to built in tension and cracking from that.
Cast iron with an odd shape (not uniform in thickness and shape) will cool unevenly and even if you put nickel and other alloys in, it will be a challenge.
To take on a project like casting a flathead block is a deep black hole that will eat you time and money for a long long time....i can just admire the people willing to do something like this.
Problem with making a better flathead block is that it will never be allowed in classic racing, so there´s another set of tooling to go authentic and improved.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

To make a lost waxmold the size of a flathead block and get all out of it isn´t easy...
3D printing it in PLA and then heating it up enough to make it burn up is more likely to work.
Cores are made differently and chemicals are added to make it cure and be tuffer then the rest of the mold and you use steel wire to keep it in place.
How do you hang the cores in a lost waxmold ??
Its not as easy as it can look at first sight.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

I hear that!!! But I think that most who have started such projects go into it thinking in traditional methods of casting instead of pursuing non traditional means. What I mean by that is that there are up and coming processes and technologies that would make pouring the castings cake walk for limited production runs, but unfortunately come with a cost. Its just a matter of time for those costs to come down. Technology is constantly evolving, my biggest hang up with some of my lost pla casting work has all ways been the materials.
Still there is the cost of machining.....Blah...

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

With core wires or remove the sleeves. Ive been staring at this 3d printed block for a couple months thinking about it. Time i GOT OFF MY BUTT AND POURED IT...

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

You have a complete block done already with compensation for shrinking and all ?
If so youre on my list of heroes...thats a lot ot work !

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Not mine, its Flat32's. Had to up size alot of my equipment to be able to do it.
New flasks, vacuum chamber for the investment and new vacuum assist chamber for pouring the casting. Got it all together now but have a back log of other casting projects that Im trying to finish up. Still though I expect the casting to be a failure using the current materials. But you never know I may get lucky :)
Oh yea, its a model not full sized :D Im experimenting with every new printing filament that has come about. If its not one problem its another. But I enjoy it.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Then again, there's Tod Buttermore over on the "Model A" forum that actually does cast and machine his own Cleveland and Model A blocks, etc.....just sayin' that it can be done! Click the link. DD

http://351cleveland.wikifoundry.com/...ttermore+Block

http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1...8485/GW800H789

http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1...5330/GW800H600

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

pretty impressive casting...

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

[QUOTE=V8COOPMAN;1312676]Then again, there's Tod Buttermore over on the "Model A" forum that actually does cast and machine his own Cleveland and Model A blocks, etc.....just sayin' that it can be done! Click the link. DD

Don't disagree one bit, you can purchase almost any modern block in aluminum, but they are not flathead v8s!

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Here is the question...
How much would you be willing to spend on a brand new fully machined flathead V8 ??

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Nobody will ever poor as many as FoMoCo did but if the rapid prototyping equipment gets good enough, it may be possible to do affordable low scale production. The old timers made the initial positive blanks out of wood & glue to get something to make the reverse negative molds with. Casting sand feels like clay when you work with it. The sand is very fine and the resin binder holds it together well. FoMoCo used a wire that was soft like baling wire to tie the different cores in the right place so the wire would meld in with the iron during the poor. The core box has to be designed to hold the outer shells just right so the core shift is kept to a minimum.

Rapid prototyping can 3D measure a part from hand made core positives and 3D printing can help some with resizing of positives to get something to make a good quality negative core mold out of. It definitely could speed things up a bit but I don't think it will help with the initial measurement of the inside cavities to make the 3D positives. Core molds are made about the same way that the final product is and they have to be made so that the sand cores can be removed easily without breaking them up. This is not an easy task. It would be a lot easier if someone had the original core molds and core assembly box. No one will give this kind of stuff up unless they get paid for it. Lots of hours go into this kind of stuff.

There are some liquid rubber materials a person could plug and fill cavities with but the block would have to be cut apart to get them out. They might be too flexible to work with after retrieval but it might work. If Ford did it, it can be done again but its not as easy as an overhead valve block. The valve pockets and exhaust runners make sure of that.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Not relevant, but back in the 80s, an Australian dragracer built a block for a hemi out of steel plate. He made a heat treating box out of an old oil drum. I remember reading about it and seeing the pics in an Aussie hotrod magazine.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

The Kirby aluminum Flathead block was not like our Ford blocks except it was a Flathead. Making a Flathead block would be a VERY difficult (expensive) project for ANY company. It would only be easy on television.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Kirby aluminum block - didn't like the weird sleeve setup at all. I imagine they had some real issues trying to get it from "one off prototype" to anywhere near production - with the right tooling, fixturing, CNC programs, etc.. I can't imagine it ever being "cost effective" to do - has to be a complete labor of love where the amount of time invested comes from individuals with a passion and probably not a viable "new product introduction business plan". I've made a lot of those plans and spreadsheets - the numbers tell the story and they probably wouldn't be good in this case. BUT, when one has a lot of time, knowledge, computer software, skills AND relentless passion . . . things can get done! Go Ray . . . Go!

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

One could simplify the casting a bit to make the job easier. How about eliminating those removable valve guides for one? I am assuming that they were done that way originally for the high volume production machinery to have access to machine the lifter bores. They cured that problem in the Lincoln 337's I believe.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

.......and yet unusual stuff gets made every day.

I think this should be a co-op with Ford themselves. For gosh sakes Ford is a leader in large casting technology.

If there is any engine that could use some updates it is the Ford Flathead. There are tons of Flatty's going together every year.

If Kirby's project didn't pan out the way he hoped at least he showed us the benefit of an improved design.

Do you all realize for example that Kirby was able to squeeze in a 3.5" bore by reducing the head bolt size, which gave him room for the bore periphery?

We discussed that one time and he felt that the original headbolts in the Ford were too large and unyielding. Instead of stretching to provide clamping force they warped the decks. I agree 100% with him. I would bet money that a longer "torque to yield" bolt of smaller diameter in a blind hole would be a vast improvement and make more room for a bigger bore at the same time.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Read an article on boat motor production a few years back. Ford claimed that they could produce all of the boat engines required for a year in just a few hours of production time and they didn't consider it worth the effort to change the production lines for that short of run. Considering how many boat engines are required in a year you can imagine how disruptive it would be to attempt to turn out flathead blocks/engines. It is my guess that no one if going to be willing to invest the time - effort - money required to produce such a complicated block for such a small market.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

http://www.donovanengines.com/donovan-model-d-block/

http://www.donovanengines.com/wp-con.../05/ModelD.pdf

Donovan makes the "D" block and accessories, an alloy knock-off of the A/B four. Of course a relatively much simpler casting than the tortuous 8 with the exhaust passages, etc. Anything can be done...but it's cost. The Donovan D is upwards of 10,000 dollars. A flathead V-8 would be easily double at this quality. Many damaged blocks may be saved, so even if you spent tons of money stitch welding an 8, it would still beat the French flatheads, never mind a CAD/modern cast project like the D. I think people write off too many salvageable blocks personally. These V-8's breed a level of passion bordering on fanaticism, which I feel myself. So be good to them, and explore block repair...and don't expect a whooped out, blown stroker tuned within an inch of it's life to last forever. I love a full race flatty, but...a grenade comes to mind.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Interesting to read all the different takes on making new flatheads. My feeling about this is that such a project is quite interesting and would be fun to do.

When you got to the end though, what you would have is not a flathead engine like we know and love. You won't find anyone putting one in a show car for judging. If you want to improve the flathead, just go straight to a fuel injected Cosworth Ford DFV.

Another answer to the problem is to put in a cheap modern engine with roughly the same torque and horsepower (or more!) as the street rod guys do. Put your old flattie in a box and preserve it and sell it with the car. I essentially did this with my 1912 Model T which was powered by a 1921 engine with a generator and electric start. Sold it complete with a rebuildable 1912 engine.

I want my '36 to be as near original as I can keep it to have the feel, sound and "flavor" of the original. In that light, I'm rebuilding the original engine. If it turns out to have a cracked block or some other major disaster, a small block V8 will go in there in a New York minute.

John

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

I don't think this will ever happen. Unless you substantially change the design of the new block to the extent that current speed equipment (heads, carbs, cams, and ignitions) will no longer fit, there will still be the same limitations of potential power output that exist with stock blocks. Sure, another 5 or 10% MAY be able to be picked up with better port design, larger bore, etc. but 300 hp (normally aspirated) will probably be still be out of reach for all but the very well heeled. The cost/benefit is just not there.

Plus, in the long term, I believe there is no shortage of good stock blocks. If the things I see posted on these forums are any indication, I'll bet there are thousands of guys out there that have multiple good blocks stashed away (I have four). I'm 74 and will never get around to using them. After my generation is gone in 10 to 20 years, there will probably be an oversupply.

Re: Could Edelbrock cast a flathead block
 

Mr. tubman, I believe you are correct about blocks being "stashed" away.
There are car folks out there who have collected many parts they know they will never use. Someday, they will become available.