Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I just received my Model A News. I came to the article on installing seat belts and feel I must bring up some safety issues.

The physics of a seat belt in an accident is that all the attachment points are pulled along their strongest direction. Bolts are put into shear with wide thick washers to distribute force. You will notice the belts are usually mounted back behind the seat in a long straight line.
So when you design a seat belt mount you have to take all this into consideration. You want as straight a line from the anchor point to where it comes up around your hips.

Take a look at the diagram that was shown in the article. You will see the mount is a couple of soft all thread bolts attached to a thin piece of flat metal. The path of the seat belt winds around the seat cushions. The all thread metal piece is extended well above the mount on the sill rails with almost no extra re-enforcement. Too much room for movement of the soft metal.

In the unfortunate event of a quick stop...
The belt material will pull tight against the cushions allowing the person to slide forward. Then the flat steel and soft all thread will bend. This will further give more length to the belt. The countersunk screws are really bad. Very little contact area so they have no strength. It does not take much to pull them out of soft thin steel.
I have attached a scan of the drawing provided in the article. I have added the path of the belt when tension is pulled on the belt.

While the system is better then nothing, I feel it is not likely to hold against much force. I am really concerned that the countersunk screws might pull out easier then you might expect. I am sure an experienced mechancial engineer would be quick to see these issues.

A better way, but more work, would be to cut a hole in the curved metal piece and run the belt in a more straight path rear ward. Then make a brace on the floor area of the rumble to attach the seat belt mount bracket.

For my cabriolet I had some wood to deal with so the idea is a bit different. I made a piece of 1/2" steel bar that screws to the bottom of the wood cross sill with a bunch of wood screws and under the rear metal cross sill. The forces in an accident will be at an angle with most translated to a forward movement against the heavy wood with some of the force pulling up.
I cut a hole in that curved metal part to allow the seat belt to take the straightest path. The mount point for the belt was put back some in the area where feet go for the rumble passengers.
The side mounts are also put rear ward to make for straight lines. They go into the wood with large thick washers.

Keep in mind seat belt installations in the A are always a compromise. Some kind of seat belt is better then none. I feel what was written in the MAN may not be very good and with the countersunk screw maybe even dangerous.

I hope I have not offended anyone.

Now onto an idea for the rumble seat. The rumble seat is very difficult to make a proper seat belt mount point. There is just no room. So I made a lot of compromises. I have included a picture of what I have done. Heavy 1" square tubing under the sills. Then some tabs slipped up through the rumble riser. It is very tight with little room up the back of the seat bottom. Here is a case where way less then optimum mounting happens. The torque on the bar is not good and the tab might bend. Not much you can do.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I have seat belts in all my Model As, mostly to keep from falling out when the doors pop open in a crash. However, I don't expect them to save me in a really bad crash.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I saw the article also and agree this is not how I would install them. The ones in my 3 As are installed as you mention, straight line and 1/4" metal attachment point. "Your mileage might/will vary."

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

But therein lies the problem. Suppose someone rides with you somewhere in your A, and you are involved in a fatal crash. I have been advised by legal counsel that an argument could be made by the estate where there was reasonable expectation the safety belt should have held the rider in a safe position within the car. At this point you had better have proof than an Engineer designed the installation of the seat belts and that their instructions were followed exactly. I have casually spoken with a couple Engineers regarding the seat belt installation and they all start by telling me how I need to build a quasi-cage inside the body. At that point, the aesthetics are pretty much ruined. That is why I just do/can not install them on customer's vehicles.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

A little different branch here, but I recently had a customer come in who asked me to disconnect the airbag due to a medical problem with their jaw.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

This is an interesting topic. I have, for years, refused to put seat belts in any of my antique cars for one simple reason. In NY, the motor vehicle code directs that all seat belt installations must be approved by the DMV Commissioner. It's not that I think his engineering knowledge is better than mine, it a question of law. All some smart (or not so smart) lawyer needs to do is determine if your seat belts are designed appropriately. Can any of us prove that we have the training to design safety restraint systems? Here is an excerpt of NY law:

1.  Safety belts required.  No motor vehicle shall be sold or registered in this state and no motor vehicle registered in this state shall be operated in this state unless such vehicle is equipped with safety belts approved by and conforming to standards established by the commissioner.

2.  Anchorage assemblies.  No motor vehicle shall be sold or registered in this state unless such motor vehicle is equipped with safety belt assembly anchorages conforming to standards established by the commissioner for each safety belt required in such motor vehicle.


Of course, cars built before 1964 are not required to have seat belts, but if they do, the belts must conform...


Frank

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I find it sad that it is legally better to have no safety restraints then to have then.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Hi Guys, What Frank has pointed out is that we have a real "Catch 22" issue here with a damned if you do and damned if you don't possible dual outcome. I think that most of us agree that we are better off having seat belts in the car than not having them. What I think we need to keep in mind is that above a certain maximum collision speed that lap-type seat belts are not going to help us. In any type of reasonably well-installed lap restraint system, the rider will be slammed against steering wheel, dash or windshield - top of body first - long before any bolts are broken or rails are torn out. I think that the best we can hope for is to be protected in a low-velocity crash, or being thrown from the car in an oblique impact situation...
With all due respect to the issue that Frank has raised, there are numerous possible responses to the regulations that he has cited, which I won't go into here. But let me point out that a reasonable and well-intentioned effort to protect passengers an a motor vehicle not required to have seat restraints due to its age could probably be argued to good effect if such a situation were ever to result in a court case.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I have not gone here, but I will now.

MARC and the author has opened themselves up to a HUGE liability.

The editors should never have printed the article. If anyone does that seat belt installation and someone is injured or killed then the club and the author will be at fault. You can kiss the club goodbye.
I have a feeling that if the insurance company were to see the article you might see the club dropped like a rock.

What makes the article worse is the fact its author is a mechanical engineer with 50 years of experience. When I read that I was expecting some comments that he ran the phsyics and the numbers and developed his system based on sound engineering.
It is clear this was just thrown together with sub-standard parts. This based on common mechancial sense.

Quite frankly I believe the club is royally screwed at this point. They had best consult with their lawyers and come up with a plan of action to mitigate the damages.

I realize the magazines are hurting for quality writing, but they really need to have more considerations of material before they print.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

yea thats todays world unfortunately, there is always an ambulance chaser lawyer out there that would love to get his hands on articles like this so he gets tops dollar no matter the outcome or who is screwed over.

theres is ALOT of engineering involved in seatbelts, ive been in countless junkyards with modern cars and i have yet to see one cars seatbelts break or mounting holes ripped out or even bent. theres a few cars in some that its a good 95% chance people didnt survive but the seatbelts were still there. if they are broke they were either cut on purpose or jaws of life had to be used.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I cannot comprehend how the author thinks that all thread and a sheet metal floor will even begin to offer a secure mounting point for seat belts. I use a piece of channel iron as an additional cross member and 3/8" fine thread bolts with locking nuts to secure my belt anchors. Like others here, I feel that seat belts are not going to save me in a major crash.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Brent brings out an interesting concept.

It does not matter what you feel the seat belts are going to do. If someone gets into your car and there are seat belts then there is a 'reasonable expectation' that they will perform to a certain level.

So you put in a seat belt and there is an accident. If the seat belt does not perform up with whatever modern expectation then you do not have a legal hope in hell. On the other hand, if there are no seat belts then all is fine.
This is really F'd up but that is how our legal system has been 'bent'.

So in essence there may be some legal reality where you have to insist that passengers do not wear seat belts that you install. Because if the seat belt fails then you are on less legal grounds then if there were no seat belts at all as the car came from the factory.

I would also suggest that you do not sell a car with the seat belts installed.

A real sad state of affairs.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Oh, you may also want to print up some waivers for the dash board.

These seat belts will not function up to modern standards.
You are best not wearing them as the car came from the factory without them.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

If he car didn't come with belts then it stays belt less. Personally when u turn 18 I think it should be your choice just like helmets, your a adult its your life decisions.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I was going to install seat belts on my motorcycle, but after reading this.................

ugh!

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I had seatbelts installed in Sarah, why, I'm not sure because, to me, the gas tank in my face is more dangerous than seatbelts. I don't wear one even though they are available because I want to exit as fast as I can in an accident if I physically can and the same I want for my passenger. I have requirements for any person that sits in the passenger side and those requirements are for safety only, same as the rumble, no one will ever sit back there while Sarah is in motion. Call me pessimistic all you want....safety is foremost....IMO. I inform any passenger of the dangers before they get in and the fast exit importance if they decide to proceed.

Ya get more cautious in your old age and I really didn't think I would live this long....now I want to live....forever, I'm not going to challenge my luck anymore.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

A seat belt isn't going to do much good when you are already only inches from the windshield -even if that belt is snug and holds you, your upper body is going to slam right into the dash and windshield, unless you have rigged up some sort of shoulder belts,too.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Mitch, was that his wife or some other passenger?

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

If the car has seat belts then you have to use them unless you have a pass from the doctor for medical reasons, and my OP is they are there more in case the doors fly open.
Like turn signals, once they are put on the car they have to work, once seat belts are installed in the car you have to use them. In Oregon at least, if you got pulled over for some reason and the cop see you have them but are not using he/she could give you a ticket.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Even when you think you may be safe you never know what might happen. Look at the scandal with Takata air bags. My Honda was recalled over this. I don't have belts in my A and I don't plan to ever have them. The entire Model A is not a safe vehicle in todays terms. I am willing to love it for what it is and take my chances. When I was younger I totalled two different 55 Chevys and walked away. One was a tree, my fault, the other was a Buick, his fault, and I got the check to prove it. I have given up driving 55 Chevys. The A suits me fine. :)

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Fred
It's a woman's car and she is mainly the driver, but other family members drive it also

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

We are going to start making some major trips in the next few years and I am putting them in just to keep my wife and I with the car. We had a couple in our club who were hit and the wife was thrown out of the car and the driver ended up in the passenger set. Fortunately they both survived. If our 31 S/W Town Sedan gets hit, the doors will fly open. I figure if we can stay with the car we have a chance in a small accident. I know a lot of people are against putting them in. But todays traffic is not like it was in the 30's

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

When seat belts were made compulsory here in about the late 60's, some used that "It's my right to choose" argument, to which I replied, "Then it must be my right to refuse to pay my taxes that would pay for your hospital treatment."
I never had anybody come up with a worthwhile response.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

When advising people of the dangers of riding in your Model A, don't forget to have then sign a waiver of liability (your state may require it to be notarized). With any luck, it won't get burned-up in the crash. Bill

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I call it concern for the life of a person, like it's up to me, it's up to them also and it's called common courtesy, required by a conscience, not required by state law. ;)

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

"Michigan repealed the mandatory helmet law for motorcyclists several years ago, and the annual rate fatality from motorcycle accidents has quadrupled since. That statistic doesn't seem to change some people's minds though. "

But possibly the number of quad and paraplegics went down along with spinal injuries, therefore reducing mandated costs to all others.............?
If you're dead, the costs are fixed and not ongoing for a lifetime.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I was going to write an article for the A400 group about how I installed the seat belts. You guys have just demonstrated why I didn't do it. Too much liability.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

You can refuse to pay your taxes... Like i said your life decisions.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I'm still going to install them in the rumble seat of my coupes for my grandkids. The rumble seats seem like the most unsafe thing about the cars of that vintage.
Terry

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

When it comes to kids in the rumble, they are the right height for their upper body to be thrown FWD and busting their heads open of the top opening when strapped in with a belt.
When it comes down to it, on today's roads, drive defensive because it's the other idiots that are dangerous and no matter how many precautions you take in an A, they don't care.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I understand why the professionals will not install belts it is a matter of liability but a model a owner without them is a fool case in point, my son was in a car seat with a freshly installed belt but I and my wife didnt, we were hit in the right front it, bent the frame a foot to the left pulled the cowl down and she went out the door between the cars. She spent ten days in the hospital and the next two months learning to walk again. When I restored it again I ran a half inch flat stock to the frame body bolts to anchor them. All this talk of body bolts shearing is senseless if the car is hit hard enough to break them you will have much larger issues to deal with and most likely the occupants won't have to worry about anything anymore.

From personal experience if I had had anything in there for a belt it would have been better than nothing.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Les Andrews has an article on installing belts in one of his books. Juliano's has instructions for belt installations and sells hardware for them in their catalogs. Many vendors sell them. I suspect if there were liability issues, none of them would sell them or write articles about their installation. I suspect MARC researched potential liability before publishing the article.

Installed seatbelts in my 28 roadster and my 39 sedan (shoulder harnesses). I would not drive without them.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

The main purpose of this Forum is education thru sharing of thoughts. Like " what oil should I use ", the seat belt question, tho' more serious, will produce the same enormous number of responses. Remember Jimminy Cricket? Let your conscience be your guide.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

How would an article about installing seat belts be any different than an article on how to rebuild brakes? Taken to the extreme, we should not perform any work on our cars ourselves, but have everything done at a shop that carries liability insurance.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I do not call my CINCH belts seat belts. My A did not have factory seat belts. The only way to have seat belts in a car produced without seat belts is to have them engineered snd certified by some gov. athourity. Therefore I do not have seat belts and as such, I am not required to use my cinch belts or I can use them. My choice. Seat belts are either legal or do not fit the legal definition of seat belts. I do use them on tours because my "cinch belts" are a whole lot better than nothing to help hold me in position in a minor accident.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

Gee ! Where does it end ?
We am driving with ten gallons of gas in our lap, the steering post is constantly aiming at our chest or head, the brakes were designed eighty years ago, the doors are ready to pop open in a bump, the stock taillites can't be seen until the crash, the headlights do not hold a candle to modern ones, the steering was developed one hundred years ago, the tires are one-fourth the width of my Mustang, and the safety belts do not meet DOT standards, but these things do not stop us from enjoying this great automobile.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

My sister once fell out of a car when the door flew open while going around a corner. Even just a rope would have prevented that so sometimes even a little thing can make a difference. Also notice the last 2 words of my post are "minor accident".

Isn't it wonderful to live where we still have some freedom of choice? I found some merit in all the comments.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

I have always hated the seat belt law. Michigan implemented the law in 85 I think , I feel its up to you to decide if you want to wear one. I would argue "whats next helmets in cars? The women will go crazy , it will mess up their hair!" A recent incident has changed my mind. a son picked up his mother after her work shift. He is driving on I-75 and hits a patch of "black ice" then hits the center cement median. He is belted she is not, he walked away she didn't survive. I don't know why but this has made me wear my seat belt all the time now.

Re: Safety Issues with Seat Belt Article in Current MAN.
 

You open your front door of you house and hit the neighbor kid in the head with it and that neighbor could turn around and sue for cruel and inhuman treatment of his kid.

So at all times we face these current problems of society. So why not enjoy our cars the way they are and drive carefully and hope for the best.