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new model A owner, modification questions 1 Attachment(s)
Hi guys, Im new to the forum and just picked up my first model A. I was looking for a coupe traditional style hot rod, but i found this roadster and had to have it. I want to keep for a while i think, but i dont want to do anything to hurt value in case i need to sell. Ive considered looking into some of the engine mods for drivability and durability, ive seen the insert bearings, high compressions head...mods such as that as well as brake upgrades. Do any of these mods hurt the value of an original style car? Ive been wanting a model a for a long time and finally got my hands on one. I dont want to mess it up. I do plan on doing a full cosmetic restoration on it if i keep it. but if i hold on to it i want something that can be driven a good bit. Any opinions welcomed.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions For engine life, counterweights on the crankshaft help the life of the babbit. For a bit more power a 5.5 head is easy to do and should add a little value to the car, as should the counterweights. A small filter in the shutoff valve is a good thing to prevent junk from going downstream. An electronic voltage regulator helps the battery life and bulb life as well as robs a bit less horsepower to run the generator that might otherwise be constantly overcharging.
Original well restored brakes will stop the car fine. If you plan to do a lot of highway driving an overdrive or 3.27 ring and pinion will let the engine run slower so the ride should be more enjoyable. I wouldn't do anything that required grinding, drilling, or welding on original parts, as that usually hurts the value and is less reversible if someone wants a completely stock car. Now you can drive as fast as you NEED to and brake to a safe stop. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions Most people have the wrong impression of the Model A.
You have to bear in mind the car was built to run 60 MPH ALL DAY LONG!!! If you read about them the cars were beat an abused and run 60 or more and they got 50,000 to 80,000 miles on the factory engine! Today you tell someone that they will tell you that your crazy. Problem is, I grew up always seeing 55 to 60 MPH on a car later discovered to read 5 mph SLOW. Oh, the Model A from the factory was known to be very reliable. The big issues were common issues such as poor quality batteries, condensers, tires, and fuel. The reason why the A was able to run so well was Ford's passion for precision manufacturing. If you take the A engine to a rebuilder and ask them to rebuild back to Ford's production line specs they will tell you that you want a race car engine. They also are likely to tell you to go away because they could not do the job. So If you want a reliable car capable of running highway speeds then you find all the specs (just ask here) and rebuild everything back to Ford specs (with minor exceptions). Many of the modern 'upgrades' are not much of an upgrade. They generally make the car less reliable. Items that get you many advantages with high reliability are higher compression heads, B type valve cams, and the B type ignition cam. Adding a voltage regulator may be a good thing for those who do not understand charging. Inserts or babbitt are sort of no difference. They both require installation by someone with experience and a reputation for doing the job properly. Both will give you 50,000 to 80,000 miles of life. Babbitt fails slowly with warning and will likely get you home. Inserts fail suddenly and you will need a tow truck. Plus insert failure will likely destroy your crank and block as you can only bore the block once for inserts. Counter weights were not really used back in the day and they went 50,000 to 80,000 miles on the babbitt. BUT, the big BUT, the engines were very well balanced by Ford. Everything the rotates was balanced tightly. The crank was set up such that the flywheel was less then .001 off center. This is not found too much today. Another factor the is not understood is babbitt peening. My brother sees a lot of babbitt obviously not properly peened. This will lead to breaking babbitt which may be mistook for out of balance issues. Peening is expanding the babbitt while still warm (plastic) such that it fully seats against the bearing saddle. If it is loose it will flex and eventually break. There are also issues with the cranks not being ground on centers, imagine if the center main is out of center from the front and rear. Which brings me back to reputable builder with a long establish reputation doing the job right. Alternators are being sold with a false promise. The input shaft diameter is not large enough to allow for enough HP transfer to meet the basic 60 amps, in reality it is not likely to produce more current then the generator (with some more details not included here ). Electronic ignition is no real advantage, but if it fails or you battery voltage drops too low you will be towed home. A properly restored original dist should outlast your grandchildren. (FYI do not replace points unless they are really bad which should be decades at the rate we drive the cars) Going to 12 volts is needless PIA. Just complicates things in the end. The overdrive is another waste of money for most people. You should expect 50,000 miles on a properly rebuilt engine which includes a lot of 60 MPH driving. That being said, the few that really do zillions of miles on the highway may realize some benefit of the lower engine RPM. Then there is having good working springs which leads you needing good working shocks or the car will not hold the road over 25 MPH. However, no shocks and dead springs seem to be ok for driving up to 45 MPH. Brakes need the same precision as the rest of the parts. They have to be right. The whole floater thing is a waste. The problem is you have to have the right tools to do the brakes right. Juice brakes are just unsafe. We used to own a 39 Ford 60HP. We had it running like a top, but the darn brakes kept mucking up. Never went more than a couple of years before a wheel cylinder would muck up. I had a discussion with most of the people at a car show once. Scary how many (all makes and years) cars at shows have less then 4 wheel brakes and the owner do nothing about it. Just as bad, most of the A's I see locally it is obvious they brakes can not be good. Just look at the front lever and it is vertical or leaning rearward. So if you want a reliable car that runs 60+ MPH all day long keep it close to how Ford built it. Most of the modern mods are really just poor attempts at repairs for by people that do not understand how to properly restore the car to Fords specs. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions Welcome to the forum! Tom hit the highlights pretty well. I'll try to add a couple thoughts. First, some of the internal mods such as inserts are a reaction to folks failures to obtain good babbitt work. Since I've never had a bearing failure in nearly 40 years (and I run them much harder than most), I'm not in a rush to go there. I also disagree with some regarding the use of inserts in a non-pressurized system with the way I drive but that is certainly debatable as you will likely hear.
Now, a little shift in topic with some advice. DON'T RUSH! You can drop some big bucks in an engine and still not enjoy the car for other reasons. that "investment" can quickly be a capital loss on resale. That is not to say it won't be worth it to you but folks will buy the car based on appearance first and BASIC functions second. A stack of receipts MAY help you get a couple bucks more for the car than you would otherwise, but not much. Ok, back to the "don't rush" topic. I highly recommend taking some time to enjoy and get to know your new toy. Unlike many folks that frequent this forum, you shouldn't be locked in all winter. You can take some time to drive and play with the car over the next few months. You WILL find little things that need attention to make it more comfortable and enjoyable. There are many good folks here that will waste no time helping you get there. Again, welcome to the forum from just one of the guys. We are entering the time of year when many folks are cooped up, fuses tend to burn short, and personal tensions tend to rise until the spring thaw comes. I'm only mentioning that because I see it every year and a few abrupt responses shouldn't be taken personally. For every one that goes over the top there will many more remaining calm and wanting to help. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions bdave_mcc,
I absolutely agree and concur with what Kevin in NJ is telling you, although I sometimes run a stock Model B engine at times, a stock Model A engine will perform well for many decades. I also very much like running the stock 3.78 gears, because we have lots of Hills-Mountains to climb to get anywhere out of the valley that I live in. Higher gears will fall on their face going up hills and use up your brakes going back down. Just my experience. Darryl in Fairbanks |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions Hi and Welcome.
Seems to me you could drive that Car for a long time the way it is. The mods won't add value, will add little to no dependability, and will cost you money. It's a cool car, enjoy it. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions Thanks for the quick replies, My first course of action is going to be checking out the clutch and severe rear engine leak. Its got a bad shudder when releasing the cluth(which may be normal, i dont know) and leaks bad/worse than normal i would think. The oil leak i can deal with as long as its not a completely worn out engine causing it. Thanks again.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions Welcome,
PLEASE get it running, (we can help here and you should also investigate the 2 national clubs MAFCA and MARC.) then give the car a chance, drive it enjoy it for a while then make your decision. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions It runs good, I drove it some when i got it home, gotta get the shaking/noises associated with whatever is going on with the clutch fixed. The previous owner said it knocks when started when its really cold, but i havent had that issue with it yet. I'm just praying its all simple fixes and am not going to be paying for a rebuild right from the start.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions My 29 Tudor vibrated like a paint shaker every time I let the clutch out from a stop. I replaced the disc with a new one, replaced the pressure plate with a nice looking used one from a swap meet, and I used my 4" palm sander to lightly sand the flywheel face. The car now takes off as smooth as an automatic. I did the same fix for a friend this summer and his car is now smooth.
BTW, the disc and pressure plate I removed looked perfect, but they must have been the problem. Oh yes, I almost forgot, while the tranny was out I also dialed in the flywheel cover to make sure it was within .006" at the 9, 12, and 3 o'clock positions. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions Everything DOESN'T have to be "like new" to give you a lot of service. Model A's are a very forgiving car in many ways.
Oil Leak: Make sure your oil cap is NOT pushed down so far that it's square holes CAN'T vent the crankcase! Bill W. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions You mention oil leaks; before you do anything, allow the oil level to drop to half way between the full and low marks on the dip stick, also make sure the breather cap is not sealing the crankcase. I had a bad leak when I first got my coupe, it turned out to be the bell housing casket was on reversed allowing the cam shaft bearing to be open to atmosphere. these engines do not have rear seals so they do drip a little.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions Quote:
Clutch chatter is not unusual in cars that have been messed with a bit. It's less than ideal but typically shows up first (or worst) in reverse. When it's bad in first gear it's a definitely an aggravating issue that you can attend to when ready to jump in. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions 1 Attachment(s)
Minerva's clutch chattttttered in low & reverse!! For 2 months, I'd take off in 2nd, at an idle, by sloooowly letting out the clutch, & NO chatter! After doing this for the 2 months, she DIDN'T chatter in low & reverse any more.
I "suspect" it helped smooth out old lining chatter marks, or SOMETHING?? or maybe it wuz jist 'MAGIC"??? Bill W. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions I hope to get started working out some of the problems soon, thanks for all your input
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As someone who hammered a Model T Speedster with zero brakes into a tree, I can only shake my head in disbelief about this. |
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There were electric cars in the early 1900's, if they were so good why did they go away? What are the hot sellers today? The model T had one coil for each plug, if they were so good why did they go to one coil for all plugs? How many coils are there in the modern car? If drum brakes were so good why did they move to all disk brakes? I just read about the move back to drum brakes in cars. The Ford Focus has drum brakes in the rear as an example. I could go on and on. Argue why something is better on the merits of the part itself. Please don't use "then why did they change it?" Things have been changed for looks, marketing, just to save money, less parts, and so on, not necessary because it works better. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions Cost drives a lot of decisions. The Ford Focus has drum brakes in the back because they are cheaper. I have a Focus Titanium and it has discs in the back. Higher trim level and better brakes. Technology changes, too, but the bottom line is the bottom line for companies.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions SO! If each of you could design a FREE car, to be made JUST for you, how would it be equipped? Bill W.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions Kevin in post #3 covered it pretty well. I would like to suggest that a second tail light, seat belts and turn signals are good investments to consider if you plan to drive very much. I hate to say that I don't agree with Kevin on hydraulic brakes when he says "juice brakes are just unsafe". The same person that messes up hydraulic brakes can mess up mechanical brakes. The problem with hydraulic brake conversions is that the task is beyond the abilities of many people and the result is indeed dangerous. Having said that I have one car with mechanical and one car with juice brakes.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions I have never had a total loss of brakes while driving a. Mechanical brake car, I have had total brake failure in hydraulic brake cars,I have also driven late 20s, early 30s HUD brake cars and wouldn't want one following me while driving my A with mech brakes.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions Steve let me explain.
The problem with juice brakes are they do not like to sit. It is worse with the older style systems and dependent on climate. The reason it is worse on the older cars is the lack of any check valve. The check valve holds a bit a pressure on the system keeping the fluid going in one direction. Once the pressure is equalized, then you can get a daily pressure change. As the temps vary through the day you get the liquid pressurizing and then a slight vacuum. This allows the brake fluid to meet water at the wheel cylinders. Of course you also get condensation on the metal in some areas. This allows for the wheel cylinders to get royally mucked up. That wheel stops having a braking action. Now we have a safety issue. I live in southern NJ near the shore. I can 40+ degree differences at some times of the years along with condensing moisture. We had a 39 Ford that we just did not drive enough and every 2 years we were pulling a rear drum off to clear up a wheel cylinder. Here is the real kicker. A good number of people do not bother keeping their cars in good working order. The brakes kind of stop the car so they do not bother doing anything about it. I started asking questions at a car show one year (Smithville for those that are local). This was after I had the rear wheels muck up on my 65 Mustang. Half the cars there had some issue that indicated lack of braking. Several guys KNEW their cars did not have rear brakes and never bothered to fix it. So are brakes that can just fail from sitting safer then brakes that just keep working? The added detail that is sometimes lost with Model A brakes is the fact that properly done mechanical brakes have the same stopping power as juice with the original type tires. I had a discussion with one of the Miller's (they own Carlisle and lived near me) about this problem. He said he never had a problem with his collection of Vettes. Of course, he has a climate controlled garage. I would also believe that there are some areas of the country where the brakes are much less likely to have problems. Like the guys that live in the perfect weather of CA. Hope that makes sense. |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions Some early Ford hydraulics, whether original or converted, leave a lot to be desired. This can be overcome by adding a hidden Bendix Hydro-Vac booster! It's an EASY job. Some early AMC cars used them. Bill W.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/hamb/buttons/viewpost.gif
SO! If each of you could design a FREE car, to be made JUST for you, how would it be equipped? Bill W. cause Im into good looks.... a 1937 Cord 812 westie! |
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions Let me suggest this as an interesting reading exercise for someone interested in upgrades of their Model A:
http://www.lainefamily.com/ModelA.htm |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions A Saab 9000! With turbocharger and a 5 speed. Tough, reliable, fast, and classy! I like Swedish engineering. I've forded streams, run over plowed fields, and didn't break anything! Love that car!
Terry Quote:
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions brother Hesekiel... thanks for posting the Laine site... I am just returning to the Model A after 50+ years... had a 30 coupe in high school and immediately installed a flathead with a 39 tranny which was the thing to do then. While looking for a 30/31 pickup I came across a 30 roadster in very decent condition and I am currently enjoying the discussions re alternators, carb upgrade, brakes, etc..
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions 1 Attachment(s)
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Got a little work to do to figure out the oil leak but in the meantime, is there a way to search for members by location on here? I'm really wanting to find other A owners and possibly someone who can do babbit or rebuilds in my area. Birmingham, al |
Re: new model A owner, modification questions 1 Attachment(s)
Oil puddle and trail, was a little late finding and getting the pan under there.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions bdave_mcc,
That appears to be a vertical crack that extends well below the area that you circled. Did this just appear? Or has this been there for some time? Darryl in Fairbanks |
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions 1 Attachment(s)
Welcome to the hobby. I find your interest in modifications refreshing. I have been doing things to make the Model A more reliable and comfortable for years. My sedan is set up for long distance travel and was clocked at 75 MPH on the freeway in TN last spring on my way to the Blue Ridge Parkway Tour. The car is a Model A engine with balanced crank inserted rods high compression head touring cam Weber carb and electronic ignition. It has A/C heated seats and one of the hidden stereos. The Mitchell overdrive round out the chassis. Makes for a nice touring Model A. PM me if you want additional information on how where and why I did some of the things.
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions 1 Attachment(s)
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions 1 Attachment(s)
Ok so I found a couple issues with the rear main. The oil tube was missing causing most of the oil leaking problems. Also there is about .017 end play on the crank and the babbit on the front part of the main cap was broken. Will that in itself cause problems? Is it worth the trouble to remove the engine to install one of those brass type rear main seals to correct the end play? I know I have to remove the back part of the babbit, is that something that an engine machine shop needs to do or can it be done at home? Thanks
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Re: new model A owner, modification questions bdave_mcc,
To me, it looks as if your photo your Rear Main Babbitt is cracked. Look at the right side, front side of cap, at the radius where it is flush with the block, both sides appear separated. It looks as if it runs from one side to the other, not parallel but at a arc, looks like pitting at the bottom. Darryl in Fairbanks |
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