Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Cool discussion, I started the Edelbrock thread, because if we ever run out of rebuildable flathead blocks, I am hoping some manufacturer will step up to the plate so we can continue this hobby.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

They are not large enough to produce something as large as a flathead block in a single piece.

3D "printing" is great in theory, but not really practical for an application such as this as of yet.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Well if the first thing your gona do is improve the ports. I sugest you get a good flow bench, abunch of grinders,and allot of Bondo. Also remember the cylinder head is also part of the porting system (transfer area) and last but not least the shape of the valve. And the rules are: All stock Ford parts must fit. Now go for it. Here's a hint: remve the water arount the intake ports, but not the exhaust.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Just wondering, how much would you like to see the intake valve angle changed? What would be done to compensate for the out of parallel between the deck and the valve seat, would a "mini-relief" so to speak, be required? What else would need to be corrected/changed?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

While reviewing some of my old picture taken at the 2011 EFV-8C/A's Auburn, IN Meet, I came across this picture of Mark Kirby's 34 coupe test vehicle that had a running sample of one of his prototype "new block" engines installed. Seems to me he said he had somewhere between 40-60k miles on this engine at that time.

stay tuned....I thought this picture was filed in my tablet, but it must be in my computer files. Will add it to this post later today :o

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Since this will be a from scratch build, would it be possible to make it so the transfer area and head can be shaped like the Harley KR (I think that is the model) flatheads? If I recall correctly, they were designed by Sir Ricardo and are an excellent design.

If I remember what 'Ol Ron said, the reason it can't be done know is due to stud location. This change would of course necessitate new heads to be cast as well.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

And there's the rub; costs go up by another large chunk and you lose the nostalgia factor all in one fell swoop.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Well, if the ultimate goal is more h.p., why not make it the best it can be? From what I understand, it would just require re-locating some of the head bolt locations.

If done well, the average on looker wouldn't notice re-located bolt locations.

From the reading I've done, that Harley combustion chamber shape is the best you can get in a flathead design.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

The old Harley 45, 55, & 61 CID type flathead motors are air cooled with no water ports to worry about and the intake & exhaust ports are way different. The KR type profile looks good on paper but the flow characteristics wouldn't help much in a Ford flathead V8 due to the ports.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Granetille made some heads with this chamber. I'll post a pic if I can find it. I used the heads on my Bville engine andit sits in a junk yard inCA

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Good questions and thank you for asking.

Yes moving the intake valve over towards the cylinder margin would require a minor notch or "relief" since (you're right) the valve head would no longer be parallel with the deck.

Imagine looking up through the cylinder from the bottom and actually being able to see the edge of the valve at or near max lift.

This, I feel would require a lifter bore machined inline with the valve stem. In other words the lifter bores would be staggered from intake to exhaust.

I realize this sounds a little "out of the box" but I don't think it's out of the realm of realistic possibility.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Of course I think any new "service" block should take advantage of the biggest practical bore diameter possible. I think 3 5/16" is a no brainier and 3 3/8" or even 3 7/16" should be at least looked at.

You see at this point I feel that PTAW cylinder walls would be a great and reasonable way to do this in an otherwise aluminun engine.

This process is relatively cheap and very well perfected. Ford Motor Company used this process in production on their 5.8 liter Trinity engine that was built to produce over 600 hp.

The Modular platform that the "Trinity" is based on are very limited in bore spacing. Thus it is tough to get a bigger bore by conventional means i.e. a steel sleeve. The PTAW process leaves a very durable surface on the cylinder wall and it's only a few thousands thick.

They did not have to overbore the block in order to accommodate a thicker walled sleeve in this aluminun in block.

If you doubt the process I suggest you read up on it. Engine rebuilding companies are beginning to use this process to refinish worn engines to original bore specs.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I thought we were building a replacement block. Not a one off racing engine.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I've been following along with this discussion and thought I'd add a few thoughts.

In regards to the need for vintage racers, for the SCTA all non oem production blocks are not allowed. Not even the French blocks. This may change someday but who knows.

If I were to approach this task with sufficient funds I would use the 3D printing process which can directly print sand molds and cores. This would allow you to create test motors without shelling out for casting patterns that may just need to be thrown away. The 3D printed sand patterns are expensive but I feel could be justified to avoid pattern rework.

On the design side I feel you need to keep compatibility with most all components you can. As soon as you stray from the original design you are losing out on some of the demand. Your idea of lowering the intake valve to the bore is the difference between pre war and post war blocks. Starting with the 59 series blocks the valves and lifter bores were rotated up around the cam bore. This moved the valve heads .090" further away from the bore at the deck surface.

Ultimately it all boils down to demand unless you are independently wealthy and have the means to do this just for fun. I consider myself in the younger crowd in the flathead world and being a racer I have the opportunity to ruin my fair share of blocks in the future. That being said I feel I have already squirreled away at least 50% of my lifetime supply of tested, crack free blocks. So even at the right price I don't know if I would ever have the need for one, even though I would love to see this happen.

Andy

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

No not at all Ron. Just proposing ideas on how to get the very most from the basic architecture.

I feel that it is very important that any and all exterior parts such as intake manifolds and cylinder heads should interchange directly.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Excellent post, thank you for your input Andy.

I would like to ask you if say a new block is never approved for competition in any current vintage engine classes, would there be any reason why a racer couldn't just run this theoretical new engine just to get a "personal" record for instance?

If said engine could simply bolt into the same place as an original Flathead Ford what would prevent someone from running this engine in an "open" class?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

BTW, the point that Andy made about the later engines which had the valves moved away from the cylinder margin is very interesting.

I have heard multiple people express how well their early 221" V8's run. My '41 which is stock except for dual exhaust has no trouble keeping pace with later and larger Flatheads. (yes we run 'em for fun sometimes)

Could it be that the 81A breathes a bit better due to the proximity of the valves relative to the cylinder margin?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

The SCTA would allow an engine such as this to run for "time only" and not be qualified for any records.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I see thank you.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I am not interested in new blocks. I have a couple in the barn myself (a lot of us seem to be the same). However, new cast iron heads with the "Denver" chamber and stock exterior would really get my attention. My personal request is for the 1938 only 24 stud head exterior...

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

While in dream world. I'd like to see the spark plug moved to the transfer area, so we could get better gas mileage.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

So Ron, there is a Superflow flow bench within about a mile from my home. I believe if I build the fixtures I can get something "flowed" for reasonable cost.

I'm curious do you have flow stats for Flatheads with various port, relief and cylinder head combos? It would be nice to baseline off known data and save the bench time for any new configuration.

Thanks in advance.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I don't know that I've ever had my hands on a "Denver" cylinder head. Would like to see some detailed pics if anyone has some.

Do we know the story behind the Denver heads? Why they existed. Who designed them? What purpose did they serve? What specific vehicles did they appear in?

Anyone know the true backstory on those heads?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Different chamber and compression ratio to help combustion at high altitudes.

I would also be interested in a set of these; especially if the spark plug location was tweaked like 'Ol Ron suggested.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Uh, oh. Moving the lifter angles sounds like you are copying the big block Chevy method of enhancing flow.
Seriously though, that comes with other changes. The right bank will now open the intakes early and the left will be late unless cam timing is corrected on the lobes.
I am really an OHV guy, never built a flathead but here's something that I have thought about before. Say a guy finds an original Winfield SU-1A for an early f/h and he uses an adapter to run it with his 8BA block and ignition system. Does anybody check the difference in camshaft events and is it enough to matter? If I check cam timing events on no. 1 and then check no. 6 won't I see them different because the lifter angle was changed in the later block, or "rotated up" as Andy put it? Or am I just looking at that all wrong?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

You are 100% right. In the case of this discussion I don't think it would add a great deal of cost to the bottom line. We are talking about adjusting timing events intake to exhaust. I'm no cam grinder but that doesn't seem like that's an expensive hurdle.

So to sum it up, the cost of a camshaft which is an expense in almost every build. Not much else changes as far as what you'd have to buy. Even the current crop of cyl heads would be fine. The exception being the normal valve to head clearancing which is normal procedure in the higher lift cam builds.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I guess I gave the wrong impression with my initial comment, I completely agree that the cam change is no big deal. I hi-jacked your thread by asking my question about early/late cam adaptations.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

In the combustion chamber there is an area known as the " transfer area" This area can be considered as part of the ports. It has an angle in which air/fuel enters the cylinder. The angle, shape and length along with the exit angle determines the CR as well as the flow cheristics of the head. By changing these dimensions and angles, you change the CR and air flow. The "Denver and most aftermarket heads just reduce the angle which raises CR but limits flow. When I was making flow tests I found that an 11/12 degree angle was best and is what most stock heads have. However the exit angle is pretty sharp and increasing it to 60 degs flow improves, Unfortunately this reduces the CR. As for the spark plug location. I would suggest that placing it in the transfer area and at the same angle would improve combustion and low the Octane number of the chamber.
AS you can see this is a complicated issue involving many things. I have some flow data in my book. However it in percentages as I couldnot get accurate CFM
Good luck Plese excuse the spelling

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

love to see some pictures of the combustion chambers if you have them....

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Yes, I'll gather up a few. Have to get my grandson to post them

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Are you saying that the cam from an 8ba would alter the timing if used in an early (36) engine
Lawrie

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

In Post #94 Andy mentioned that the valves had been moved .090 away from the cylinders by altering the angle the lifter bores were machined on. From my experience as a budget (if there is such a thing) nitro racer the low buck racers will buy used parts. When buying a camshaft for a 426 Chrysler there are two lifter angles for aftermarket aluminum blocks, 45°, which is the stock angle and 48°, used in raised cam blocks. Just to be sure that a cam is in fact ground for 45° we always degree the cam , naturally using no. 1 cylinder and then checking no. 6. If they don't match then the cam was ground for the 48° or vice-versa. I know the flathead was not changed by raising the cam tunnel but changing the lifter angle had the same effect on the lobes, the cam timing is not as designed. I don't know how much the lifter angle changed, maybe it is not enough to matter but that 3° change in angle makes a big difference to our engine.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

While the SCTA will not allow a replacement flathead block the other timing associations ECTA and LTA allow the use of replacement flathead blocks on the East Coast. The French block is legal for the X class racers to use if they so chose. I was the guy who proposed this rule change to the ECTA and it was approved.
The last records I set running my XF/BGL Lakester at the Ohio mile was with a French flathead block turning just over 172 MPH the record set at the LTA event with the French block was 182 MPH. These records are the first ever set using the French block for land speed racing.
If and when a replacement block is produced there will be a place to set records and if its determined the improvements are an unfair advantage a class for the new block would be proposed and Im sure approved at least on the East Coast.
Ronnieroadster

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I couldn't remember the angle change off the top of my head. Had to look it up.

They are rotated 0.72 degrees up on the post war motors.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

How come, you can use aftermarket Chrisler Hemi and SBC and Ford blocks. Lot of them around, or nobody checks.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

In the SCTA the oem blocks applies only to vintage engine classes and the fairly new iron roadster class. All "normal" engine classes that are simply cubic inch ranges you can do anything you want. It could be your very own design engine whittled out of a solid block of metal. All they care about is the cubic inches.

There are three main vintage engine areas:
- V4F/V4 - pre 1935 4 cylinder
- XF/XXF - Ford flathead V8 up to 325 cu in
- XO/XXO - inline 6 (pre a year I can't remember) and other brand flathead V8

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Guys this question is a bit off from our technical discussion but I am curious about this.

Would it make a big difference if this new "service" block would be a Ford product or at least a Ford licensed product?

Meaning when a buyer decides to install one of these in his '36 Roadster he or she can feel no qualms because this is still a "Ford" engine.

Is that important? I mean obviously the original design makes it a Ford type engine automatically but wouldn't it be better with Ford Motor Company involvement in some capacity, if only just a Ford certified product?

This is common practice today. A major car company will sanction a block or head in order to make it legal for whatever purpose they intend it for.

Now I'm not saying this is a racing part at all. In fact I hope it would become a reasonable option for a stock rebuild. But in my gut I think Ford badging would authenticate this for many if not all people.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Ford will have a big chunk of money for making anything official...and since youre not using the ford logo no real need for it.