Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Going back a little bit and maybe thinking a bit outside the box......

I'm sure everyone is familiar with the early "tin sides" V8 60 engines. Why did Ford do this on those little engines? Was it a way to facilitate an easier casting process?

Now step ahead to later engines. Let's think about what people wrongly call "freeze out" plugs. Those are actually core plugs to provide an out for casting sands in the foundry.

Many respondents here have mentioned how hard it would be to cast a Flatty most notably because of the internal exhaust boxes.

Now I'm not suggesting a tin sided new generation Flatty would be feasible or even desirable. What I am saying maybe is that some compromises could be made to make something like this a reality.

Why couldn't some small windows be positioned in the block to provide access for supports for the internal exhaust cores? Wouldn't that make all the difference in the world?

After casting and machining, small cover plates could cover the access windows.

This kind of thing is done on a variety of complex cast water cooled engines. It is also done on "forged" block racing engines that run water cooling.

I realize that this could impact the appearance of the engine BUT, maybe theses access places could be located on the inside of the valley area.

On the other hand if they had to be placed on the outside maybe their appearance could be minimized or maybe even enhanced such as a finned cover to pick up the look of the cylinder heads.

Just thinking guys.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Well the heck with it. I'm gonna bump my own thread for shits and giggles. Anyone else care to chime in?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

That's already being reproduced. Cost is somewhere between $10k-20 for a set.

In order to support the cores for the exhaust passages, the windows would wind up being in the walls of the exhaust passages. Those would not be particularly easy to weld cover plates over. Not quite sure a thin "tin" cover would be an ideal thing to have in an exhaust port, either.

I think if someone is going to be spending $2500+ or whatever on a block, they aren't going to be willing to purchase one that has tin sides or covered core support holes in the ports.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Until the cost of patching up an original iron block passes the cost of casting a new block I doubt you will be able to sell very many. And even then I think the cost of the French blocks will set the ceiling for a new block. As to which to cast I would say the French block since it can be made to work like a 59 or 8ba series engine. I would quite happily trade my good 8rt block for a 59 style block.

Thanks,

--louis

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I have built both the 59A block and the 8BA block. I prefer the 59A over the 8BA. I'm not sure why. I do prefer the 59A two bolt distributor over that lousy Load-A-Matic distributor. I like the water outlet in the center of the head.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

What might be better and easier would be to round up a bunch of Ford blocks, test them and sell them already machined.

--louis

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I agree Seth for the most part. I like the looks of the early engine better. I hate the more difficult serviceability though. On my '41 putting a quart of oil in can be quite a stretching exercise.

I think maybe Motor City has it exactly right. 8BA out back and 59A on the front. The middle of the engine can be used in either version.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Louis this is a great point. While it would be easier said than done it sure would save a lot of trouble.

Of course all the velvety goodness of an updated block would not be realized. I envision a block that can produce more power since the breathing happens there. It's as simple as that.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

This is true. Be sure to include a method for oil filtering if you do move forward.

Thanks,

--louis

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

You might want to talk to Ferguson out in California. He makes the Ardun OHV conversion for the flathead. He also made Blocks as well. Unfortunately they had no ports.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I just took down our brass/aluminum foundry and moved it to the new shop location.
To make something like this happen you need to raise 200k from people not intrested in profit...then it will take about a year to make molds and coreboxes..make some tests...correct whats wrong...and make a test series.
After that you need about a year of roadtesting to see what kind of built in tension and other issues you got to adress.
In year number 3 you can start selling and the people investing the money can then buy a block at reduced price.
Its not undoable just a very hard task to get the financial part to work out.
If you could sell one a week...im not sure you could sell one a month...no one wants to set up machining equipment for doing one at a time..

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

When can we start? Let's talk.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Most of the folks that do one off casting projects are making a part for a very rare and highly prized collector car. Sad thing is, most of that type of stuff is simpler to do unless you are working on some big 12 or 16 cylinder car and most of those had the same engine as the base production models so a person can still source a repairable block and some of the other parts.

FoMoCo made so much of the stuff and it fit all the different body styles and even trucks so they could make it for a very low price per unit. They went from Canadian iron ore to complete block pretty quick at the Rouge foundry. I'm sure they had a fair amount of failures but they likely went right back into the smelter.

Folks find some pretty clever ways to repair & strengthen stuff on these old blocks. One guy on the HAMB machined a complete steel skirt to bolt up to the oil pan flange and mains. He made it where the skirt provided more strength to the main bearings since it acted like a girdle. The oil pan just bolted up the the lower flange of the skirt so he had to make an extension for the oil pick up. I never did see if he competed it or not but is sounded like a good idea.

Someone may even try to find a way to machine away the cylinder deck and cylinders then cast or machine a new assembly that can be installed and bolted with o-rings or something to seal it up. Rodders have been doing this kind of stuff for years. That's a reason to keep some of those old damaged blocks if they aren't too screwed up. You never know what kind of fix someone will come up with.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

why does the block have to be cast in iron or aluminum? Why not cast it in bronze?
why does it have to be sand cast? why not investment block cast it?
why in the hello do i think of this crazy stuff?

125lbs of silicone bronze = $625.00, 500 lbs investment = $675.00 expensive yes but easily repairable, more ductile than grey iron, less likely to have casting problems if done under vacuum.....Not good for high production due to material costs.......
Hmm could some crazy redneck in his back yard pull it off?? I wouldnt bet against it :)

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

When we´re talking low series and not to damn cost sensitive with the goal to produce an authentic replica my vote goes to cast iron with a high nickel content that would make a real good block still looking like it should and stronger with less chance to crack then original.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I know what you mean. but for simplicity from a metallurgical standpoint.... well Iron can be pretty damn sensitive....

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Anything that is way off from original will not be alowed to compete in classic racing, and that would be one of the places blocks will be needed.
Next is logistics...probably going to have to ship the tooling around the world rather then blocks if it´s going to be cost effective.
Changing the designator for where it was cast 59U(US) and for wherever it was poored that way being a replica and you are able to tell so.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Can't be done- no way- absolutely no way can anybody [corporate or individual] mass produce a flathead Ford V8 styled block these days....I know, because in this modern technological age we live in, the repro industry cannot even replicate simple parts that fit, that Ford, and others, churned out by the millions. We're so advanced....
Interesting as this thread is, [I am into getting great performance with ultra reliability outta my flatheads], all this is, in my opinion is conjecture. A dream...
Flatheads; you'll never spend so much to go so slow- Fact!!
Very, very interesting thread all the same.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Well I hope you're not right and when the apocalypse or Armageddon happens and the enemy attacks our power grid rendering all electronic devices useless I will be the one driving around in one of my two Flathead powered vehicles.

You see like cockroaches, these things seem like they'll survive the end of the world as we know it. When everyone else is walking you will think my Flatheads are very fast.

On a serious note it can be done. It's the wrong attitude that stops most everything. Attitude is altitude- Fact!

Here's what you do. You visualize shiny brand new and improved Flathead Ford engines stacked up from floor to ceiling and by the hundreds. Out front the phones are ringing off the hook and the people responsible for answering those calls can't keep up with the barrage of interest. It's at that very moment you realize that you have tapped into a pent up demand like no one has ever seen before.

You visualize that and work backwards.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Now this is a valid point and one I hear a lot. Here's my take......

It's hogwash for any timing association to disallow a new Flathead block. I understand any vehicle using the new block would probably need a new designation very simply because there is much room for improvement and a new block would most likely take advantage of that.

Now the last time I checked the Flathead Fords and even the earlier Ford Four Bangers were the engines that made this whole land speed contest a reality for the average guy.

When a Flathead powered car pulls up to the line at Bonneville all the officials should genuflect and do the sign of the cross out of reverence for goodness of and out of thanks for the very existence for Henry's wonderful bent 8.

Nah seriously a new block needs to be discussed with the future of the "XF" classes in mind. There are hardly if any factory blocked- headed chivolays out there. Why do they get special treatment? I think those things should be illegal on the grounds that those are the engines that ruined hot rodding.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

"I think those things should be illegal on the grounds that those are the engines that ruined hot rodding."

It's all about the quest for speed no matter what the engine.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

[QUOTE=Henry Floored;1316959]Well I hope you're not right and when the apocalypse or Armageddon happens and the enemy attacks our power grid rendering all electronic devices useless I will be the one driving around in one of my two Flathead powered vehicles.

You see like cockroaches, these things seem like they'll survive the end of the world as we know it. When everyone else is walking you will think my Flatheads are very fast.

/QUOTE]

I always thought that too. It turns out that unless I have large amount of fuel stored up in a tank with a manual pump, I will only drive until my last tank of gas is gone. Pipelines won't be able to pump oil to the refinery, which can't deliver gas to the depot, which can't pump to the trucks, which can't deliver to the gas station that can't pump into my '39. So, I guess I'll have to walk along with everyone else or stay home and read a book...:D
Ken

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Hot rodding isn´t what we are doing here...we are running a nostalgic trip !
If hot rodding still is defined as what it used to be...a cheap way for poor youngster to go fast...we would be chiptuning hondas ;)

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Bingo! All this talk about a new block being impractical. Messing with old cars is impractical and it doesn't make sense. Do why do we do it? Why do we love it so?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

[QUOTE=KGS;1316973]I don't know about you but in my area it'd take a long time to syphon all the gas out of the disabled electronically controlled cars. I'm guessing that'd be the cheapest gas I ever bought. 😉

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Well, maybe we can marry these two worlds. What if we make a block that bolts together and acts like a cover for a hopped up Honda motor?

Kids take those 1.8L right out of junkyards and run 15 lb of boost through them. All stock and nothing done to the bottom or top ends. They seem to hold up well and run like stink. I've seen some of these kids even hit their mills with a 100 shot coming off the line.

Seems like the best of both worlds: An engine that looks like a flathead, but can be put together for under $2K and would run rings around even the best-built, high dollar flathead.

Just a thought....

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Yup and Honda won Indy and LeMans this year. All this while we are sleeping and dreaming of the good old days when American ingenuity was a major force in the world.

Ahhh well......

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I was once privileged to correspond with a very high end restorer/racer deeply involved in all sorts of 1920's-'30's racing, mostly European but some contact with Ford fours. He had for a long time manufactured or arranged manufacture of very small runs of parts for VERY rare cars, 1920's Bugatti and other racers, stuff like that. Anytime a part was needed, a small multiple of the camshaft or block or whatever was run off as spares/future needs material. This was WAY past our kind of old stuff, we are talking cars with NO parts supply at all and values running into the millions, so needs were on a cost no obstacle basis. The people were not only restorers, they were actually racing their crocks too, and with both money and competitiveness in the mix anything that was needed damn well got made.
Then...he raised anchor and moved to Poland, of all places.
Why?? Cheap life, cheap labor, in a town housing a near inactive military aircraft factory and its highly skilled and unemployed staff.
Instant discount access to craftsmen (with machinery!) who could make ANYTHING and do it to combat aviation standards. No more paying Swiss gnomes and master racecar fabricators, these people had the skills and were hungry!
BUT I think it is fair to say...if you need a new block cast because you just threw a rod in your 1927 Delage Grand Prix racer, said block despite its exotic nature is going to be a LOT easier than a flathead Ford one. Open cast water jackets, OHC leading to short ports and open design, etc. These cars were originally almost as handmade as the new parts, and the makers could not have begun to handle the complexity of the ports and such in our engines.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I'm perfectly all right with this, but then, I'm old. (And have two extra good blocks under the bench.):)

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Bruce first I just want to say I have treasured your comments, knowledge and stories over the years.

Now maybe the first step is to do a "block summit". A meeting whether it be online or in person with some of the most thoughtful and experienced Ford people willing to share their thoughts in real time.

This would require, I'm sure, a mixture of engineers, engine builders and foundry men to bring a practical goal to light.

I have two or three imperatives that would not change the appearance of the engine. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas and of course many of them were already shared here.

Is the "Early V8 Ford" community willing to have a "barn raising" or in this case a "block raising".😉

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

I think my imperatives would mostly involve maybe a cast-in porting job, maybe extra metal and/or deeper water jacket in crack zone (after study of the 1946 press release on that area!), mebbe make the block webs thick slabs like the do on aftermarket SBC's. Everything generally works on flatheads, it would just be nice to have easy clean ones!
Radical changes? Seems silly. Chevy successfully updated the flathead in 1955 with the obvious modernizations, and those easily fit where a flathead lived if someone wants lots more steam.
Oh yes...some good stock looking iron heads done like Denvers, with tightened up chamber volume and decent transfer area! That would be a neat starting point and fundraiser for a block project...

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

The Polish bought up the Type certificates for the old Franklin Aircraft engines but they haven't produced very many. They also bought rights to produce a Russian copy of the old Wright R-1820 like the B-17s had. Bison lathe chucks are also made in Poland but I heard that some of those guys jumped ship and went to China to get cheaper copies of those made. The world just keeps moving on.

I'm affraid we may have to wait till 3D printers can use resins that are capable of working as an engine block. There are still too many old blocks out there that are usable at this stage of the game. Folks will buy the new muscle car small & big block castings for one, because all the good ones got blown up racing them, and two, because they are less expensive that finding & fixing an old one with some exceptions. The later overhead valve blocks are much easier to cast and have way thinner cylinder walls than the old flathead V8s with some exceptions.

A replicator like Star Treck had would be the next option in the future but I likely won't be around to see that. I might be around to see some mad fabricator actually cast an updated flathead before I keel over tits up but I imagine that will be a while. It's definitely not in my cards to do that and I'm pretty much crazy too!

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Bruce you and I agree on some stuff. I think GM very consciously went for the Ford V8 formula when they brought out the sbc. They have routinely taken what Ford had first and built on that idea. Examples, the Camaro was a response to the Mustang. The LS engine being very small block Ford like in concept. The SB2 NASCAR heads that effectively caught them back up when the Cleveland headed Fords were stomping them into the mud.

Nowadays GM and FCA will once again follow Ford with aluminun bodied pick up trucks and small displacement turbocharged DI engines.

Now that doesn't have a thing to do with this conversation except to point out that any new Flathead block would never be a substitute for more modern but soulless OHV V8.

What this would be for is to eventually become a keystone product for hobby of early V8 ing.

Of course the block should have a "cast in" port job. There is literally horsepower laying in the cutting room floor with the original porting designs. I think valve position could be "tickled" too.

Let's say an as cast superior porting job that could easily add 30-50hp to your build and the corresponding 100+ pound weight loss, ask yourself what could that do for overall vehicle performance?

I mean every aspect from acceleration to cornering to braking would be improved.

"Power Dense" is a phrase they toss around a lot these days. While you immediately think about physical size it also refers to power to weight ratios.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

How did this conversation get switched to chevys and what nots??
Here is the 3d print of Flat32's engine that will be investment cast in bronze. Its in 1/4 scale. The larger yellow section is half scale.
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/...704_141018.jpg

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

My first real step and contribution to this subject is to actually build the best intake port into one of my original blocks. That includes my repositioned intake valve theory. I think there is power to be made there. It will have no effect on outward appearance and will still be compatible with all standard production parts except for the valve guides.

Again this is what I think the first real step towards doing this.

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Care to elaborate?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Are you changing position/angle of the valve or just reshaping the runner and guide ?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

A little of both actually. I have a couple sacrificial blocks. I would like to tilt the intake valve towards the cylinder wall margin. This alone will force the intake port to "stretch" a little. I then would like create a gently curved intake port with no air damn in the valve pocket and a much kinder short side radius.

All this relieving business is done simply because it has been found that in a side valve engine we have have to encourage the flow to go sideways just as it passes the valve seat. Then we bounce the charge off the cylinder head to turn the rest of it down the cylinder.

I think I described this once as imagine taking your garden hose and spraying it full blast at 90 degrees to a solid wall. Messy!

No rotate to a 45 degree angle and do the same. What happens?

We are asking the intake charge to change direction of almost 180 degrees right when it's most important to keep momentum up and fill the cylinder.

We all know by first hand experience or by word of mouth that a supercharger wakes up a Flatty. They certainly do for the simple reason is a blower overcomes this basic restrictor in the Flathead's intake flow path.

With a supercharger the Flathead Ford starts to wander up near 1 hp per cubic inch where it should be from the get go.

Guys there is a reason why the best engine builders in the world are only getting 50 or so more hp out of a Flatty than me who sucks by comparison. If there wasn't something inherently wrong with side valve breathing the best would be wringing 300 hp out of a 276 incher.

The way to make any thought of a new block worthwhile to people is to give them the very best breathing they can get from a side valve engine.

Imagine a scenario where this "service block" if you will, just comes close to the best port job by a professional on a stock block. Combine that with being able to toss 100lbs of unneeded weight overboard. What impact would that have on average attainable performance for everyone?

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

Ther are metal 3D printers now. Might be an option.

--louis

Re: New block, a further discussion
 

The cost is up in the sky...you pay by the gram.