Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

There is quite a debate about what is original going on in the comments under this Model A video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqA28sHrWiA

Admittedly, the video is stupid. All it was supposed to do was show the car, never intended to see the light of day.

So, did we ever figure out what qualifies for "original"? Is this car what you would call "original"? Some commenters call it "restored". Where do you stand on this car?

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

Collecting militaria, different but,,,,,,. A german k98 rifle can sell for thousands depending on make, year and condition. If any parts are not matching numbers (UNLESS) its armorers replacement parts it is considered altered or not original. If it's a missmash of parts put together but the Russians after being captured or otherwise stock sanded to make it purdy, drilled and tapped for a scope for a hunter the value goes down exponentially.

Not an equal comparison and I'll let you guys settle this and quote you years from. ;)

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

I have been involved in this debate on other forums. If you go all the way back to post #2 this is my opinion on the subject. Wear items should be considered as ok to replace and still retain 'originality'. I doubt many of us know the original owners, especially going back to the late 20's, so if someone in the cars infancy replaced a dented fender, or put on a new wheel that may have been dented in a rut without our positive knowledge, that is still original IMO. Cleaning grease is ok, replacing 1929 air in the tire is ok, but removing engines, removing bodies, replacing wood, is not original. The AACA has a HPOF (or something like that) class for 'original cars'. Their guideline is pretty good, they do allow replacement components though IF they are period correct.

I get a kick out of old car ads that say 'factory original', or 'survivor' and then go on to say 'only 1 repaint' or motor rebuilt'. Although I did hear someone say that if the car didnt go into the crusher then it IS a survivor, I cant argue that!

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

IMO it's all silly semantics. The word "original" is not quantitative. It either is or it is not and i would feel comfortable saying that there are NO "original" Model A's left in the world. The word I would use is "stock". Not modified in any way. It's like hot rodders that say, "I built my car" or, my favourite "built not bought". If you started out with a car, you renovated it. You didn't BUILD it. Ford BUILT it (in the case of a model A). However, if it makes someone feel good to say they "built it" or that their car is "original", that's OK with me. It's none of my business what others want to call their rides. I just smile and nod. BTW, my first thought when I started to read this thread was an old saying in the black powder rendezvous circles, "I own Davey Crocketts personal original tomahawk. Over the years the head has been changed twice and the handle has been changed 4 times but it is Davey Crocketts personal original tomahawk". If you say so.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

I took a model a that had been molested and hacked by amateur restorers and returned it to operating and driving condition by using a majority of parts from a car that perished in a fire..basically I put one back on the road when the prospects of that were non existent.My next project will be a complete car made of parts found..is it 'original'? no..but 2 model a's god willing will return to active service.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

Not a stupid video, I enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing. One question tho, what happened to your engine pan(s)? I always like the looks of the engine pans on a Model A engine.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

Paul, two things come to mind in your situation. To begin with, had you never mentioned the engine was rebuilt, they would have never known and would have accepted it as original. The main reason is the rebuild was all internal and thus undetectable had the engine not been repainted.

Second, one should consider the Concours Host (-and their rules or guidelines) as the expert authority of what is original or not. Both of the national Model-A clubs, the AACA, and many other non-marque concours events would all allow your vehicle to be entered into their Original class as-is. So if it meets their criteria of being called Original, then what does the opinion of those trolls matter??


One point I will criticize you on slightly, is I know of several 'restored' Model-As that will drive equally as well as what yours or other low-mileage original Model-As will. One example would be your friend Marco's restored Roadster. ;) :cool: :D

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

If a vehicle is "Restored" it is returned to the condition it was in when it left the factory. Maintenance and rebuilding is not restoring.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

Steve,

It looks like you have had a few years to ponder your own question. Where do you stand?

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

What do you define as "rebuilding" and how does it differ from "restoring"?. It seems to me that anytime you make a repair, you are restoring that part to factory condition whether it's an engine rebuild, brake job or whatever. Using the gorgeous fordor in the video posted previously, to be accurate (IMO) it would be described is two ways. 1. It's an original with a restored/rebuilt (either one) engine (and anything else that has been changed since leaving the factory) or 2. It's stock sporting the original factory paint, interior and nearly all mechanical components. However, if the owner wants to call it "stock" or "original" or a "survivor" or any other adjective, it doesn't REALLY matter. The problem comes when looking at two different cars. Example is if I respond to the car in the video with "Nice, I have an original '31 tudor. It's been repainted and the engine has been changed and the interior has been redone but it is all stock". By calling mine "original" elevates it's "status" to that of the car in the video and/or, reduces the car in the video's "status" by referring to them both as "original". So to would be if someone produced a model A in pristine condition that has never had any mechanical repairs in it's life, just grease and oil changes that would truly be an "original" would not be the same as the car in the video. However, like Brent pointed out, if the owner of the car in the video didn't volunteer that the motor was rebuilt nobody would ever know if the owner wanted be deceitful about that. there are a lot of people out there without the kind if integrity shown in the video IMO. It doesn't matter one bit to me how others describe their car (unless they are trying to sell it to me) but I do find these discussions on semantics fun as long as nobody gets their knickers in a knot over it.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

I agree, perhaps add a 3rd option - Refurbishment?

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

Not a 'dumb' video at all, I really enjoyed watching this!!

Paul knows his way around Model A Fords, you can tell. Nice cars I like all of them. And did you catch the solid ice box 'clunk' when he shut the doors! Nice!

One thing that was glaring to me at least was, JANUARY 1st??? And weather like that! Sure tain't the Peoples' Republic of Illinois pretty obvious:) Why in the heck did I stay HERE all these years that was nuts.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

Valid point. By the way, a few years ago, I posted a portion of a video I shot while riding in Marco's roadster. That car is unreal.



My tudor sedan is restored with nothing but N.O.S. parts, and it's pretty close to the driving experience but still not quite. It just doesn't "feel" the same as the original car.



You're right about the engine internals. I wish it didn't have to get repainted, but the restorer did it thinking he was helping me. Same thing happened to the radiator when I had the radiator shop boil and rod it out. They repainted it. Now you have to look closely to see that it's original.


I know opinions run all across the board, but I am still curious to see what middle ground looks like. My opinion is that tires, belts, hoses, etc. can be replaced and a 91 year old car is still original. Where do you draw the line? For me it is a repaint, motor swap, interior material swap or similar. But, I asked because I am trying to learn, not to share my opinions.



Thanks for the kind words. I will never know everything about Model A's, but I am enjoying the journey trying to learn as much as possible. It feeds my Asperger's Syndrome.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

They were removed in the 1950's for some reason. I have a set, though not original to that car, so I could always put them on for judging. But the car is just being preserved as it has been handed down and not built up as a white ribbon car. What you see is what it is.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

Then there's the cars on the TV shows that they call restored, w/fancy wheels, different drive train, lowered, super duper upholstery and who knows what-all done to them.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

The "original" debate has been raging for the 60 years I've been involved with old cars and no doubt well before then. It will never be settled because there are so many definitions of the term. For example, a popular definition is "as it left the factory." I submit there is no such thing. As soon as a car rolled off the assembly line (and likely before), it began to change. It incurred wear before it ever left the factory lot. That process continued throughout its life, so worn parts may have been replaced. Even if they were OEM, they were not factory-installed on that particular car. If they weren't replaced, they no longer met factory specs. So the car wasn't "as built." Yes, that's a ridiculously strict definition but it illustrates the point that the semantics are meaningless.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

A completely ORIGINAL car of any make is almost impossible these days. Yes if the car is running and driveable, maintenance items would have been required. "Other changes would be questionable and open for discussion. "Original Only Once," will ALWAYS be open to questions, exemptions etc, when discussing Model A's or what ever...

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

At some point that original model A will need to have something done. I look at it as many historical sites in a state of preservation, doing and replacing things as closely to original as possible. Do any of us do the same with our modern vehicles? I try to stick to OEM, but my 2008 Mustang GT has many upgrades and non-factory items on it that in my opinion make it perform better. I’m not sure modern cars will really reach the point of collector worthy or restorable, but I’m sure none of the folks that bought these cars when they were new ever thought they would be on the road 92 years later too.

Re: So you have an all original car...OK...
 

So you’re saying my friend’s ‘28 phaeton that’s been made into a pickup, has not been driven since 1930, has 1942 license plates, a two barrel Weber carb and an alternator is not an original?