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Old 12-22-2012, 10:32 AM   #1
ctlikon0712
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Default So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

Ive debated whether or not to post this but the sellers last reply kinda made me think.... what the hell.
I saw this sale of a nice Model A. It looks nice but is not a real Traveler. The sale is at $19,000 with 6 bids and I thought the way they portrayed it as a restoration that it gave the impression that it was a real rare one.
Now I know that buyers should educate themselves but in the off chance that this seller was just ignorant of A's I thought I'd give him a friendly heads up that what he had wasn't real. This was our correspondence. I have not and will not hassle him further.
What do you guy's think?

Dear yaztecautoga,

I don't know how much your dealership knows about Model A's but that isn’t a real Traveler. There are many glaring discrepancies that scream bad restoration. Now I don't want to interfere with your sale but would hope that someone isn't misled thinking that they are buying a real Traveler. Some of the issues are:
They only made that model in 31 and that is a 30.
Woody's and Travelers were made from Hard Maple, that is oak, and the vertical and horizontal slats are not shaped or spaced correctly.
Also the header above the windshield should be metal not wood, and the front door hinges are an integral part of the cowl, those are not.
In my opinion someone took parts and built a Traveler and didn’t even use the proper cowl for a knock off
I don’t mean this letter with any malice; I just think everyone should be properly informed.
Craig Likon
- ctlikon

Ford : Model A
Item Id:
230898197995
End time:
Dec-23-12 13:00:00 PST
Seller:
yaztecautoga (463)
100.0% Positive Feedback
Member since Sep-25-01 in United States
Location: GA, United States
Listing Status:
This message was sent while the listing was active.


Dear ctlikon,
what is your point? Please remember that this car is not put up for judging at a Model A Club Forum? All people who have shown interest in this truck and some who are bidding on it are aware of all the facts that you have mentioned. Ebay is not on a chat line. If this car is not corret and you are not in a market to buy it, why are you expressing your opinion. I am 58 years old and have owned more than 1000 cars. Any where from a 1923 Bentley open tourer to a 1971 Mercedes 280SE 3.5 cabriolet and a 2012 Bentley twin turbo that is my daily driver. I know cars. I currently own 22 cars valued over $2,000,000.00. Do you really think I need you to judge my truck with or without malice? Do you own a real 1930 Woody wagon? If my truck is a pile of junk, then you need to move on and not worry about it. Some people like to have a nice vehicle that looks good and can be driven for not a whole lot of money. Not every one is buying a truck like this to take it their club meets and have the other 'expert' members shredd it apart like you do.
Happy holidays
- yaztecautoga


This was my point "Now I don't want to interfere with your sale but would hope that someone isn't misled thinking that they are buying a real Traveler." And yes I do own a real model A woody, unrestored. I don't know the sale agreement or specifics are, and don't care. If you had accepted the car as a trade then I hope the value didn't put you upside down. I also didn't want someone else to have buyer's remorse after finding out that the car isn't a real Traveler. You obviously already knew all this and didn't appreciate my heads up so.... good luck and Happy Holidays.
- ctlikon

Dear ctlikon,
Do not worry about how much I have paid for the truck or and how much someone else will pay for it. The only thing that you should worry about is that 'you' do not pay too much for it! Since you are not a prespective buyer, just stop hassling me or someone else about a vehicle that is not of your concern. Once again, fortunately I am not a Ford model A club member. I do not need advice! Just try to concentrate on your holidays. You are not the Ebay 'police'. I will not respond to any future emails.
- yaztecautoga
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Last edited by ctlikon0712; 12-22-2012 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:41 AM   #2
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Lightbulb Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

If you are not interested in bidding on this ......


I think the reply was appropriate




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Old 12-22-2012, 10:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

I don't think that telling him the facts was wrong, but I would not have sent him a second message. Say it once and be done with it. Most sellers and many buyers do not really care how correct the car is. The seller just wants the money and the buyer educated or not can clearly see what they are buying. I have been on both ends of this. If selling I will post the original question and a polite reply. At that point I feel my part on taking and pointing out any differences is done as it is there for eveyone to read. Right now I have been in contact several times with the seller of the 1929 130-A Deluxe Delivery seller as a friend of mine is debating wheather to bid on it. The seller has not posted the questions I have asked or the replies, nor has he added the info as to missing pieces etc. I feel he should have added the info or posted the questions, this throws up some red flags for me, but it is not me decesion when and if my friend decides to bid. Rod
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:37 AM   #4
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

If the seller is posting everything he knows about the car, stay out of it. I have had "experts" chime in on some stuff I sold where I KNEW that they were wrong. I have been at shows where "experts" were put down by other "experts" too. Why should any Ebay seller listen to some "expert" that he doesn't even know, and doesn't know if the "expert" really knows what is right or not? You are not helping, you are interfering. Back off.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:45 AM   #5
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

To me the car is "carefully" missrepresented.
Looking at the pictures it is no worse than the majority of Model A's I see at car shows and in the mall on display. Unfortunately the vast majority of potential Model A owners don't make use of the available forums and literature to find out what an authentic car should be made of until it's too late and they own it. I did the same thing over 20 yrs ago and am still dealing with the consequences.
It's the same thing as when the vast majority invests their life savings... It's been said we'll generally put more thought into picking out a pair of pants, than into selecting a financial advisor.
Whoever buys this thing will very likely get a certain amount of enjoyment from it or the attention he's starving for at car shows. Hopefully the internals & running gear aren't as badly represented as the car & maybe he will get some happy use from it.
...although the salesperson has carefully covered his *ss stating it's only been driven "around the block". Smart one!
Sure it's covered with dozens upon dozens of incorrect parts, the paint is too shiny in the wrong places, the woodwork somehow looks "all wrong" (to my uneducated woodworking eyes)...even the ad is riddled with spelling errors. I'm not sure how they got "plating" to adhere to all the stainless nor why the dents where left in the radiator surround. I'm not even sure what they "rebuilt" on the head as even the ad acknowledges the valves are in the block.
Bottom line is ...buyer beware, I know you've done a commendable job of politely educating them but you'll never be able to save the world and besides, if everyone was smart...we'd all have a much harder time saving for retirement.
Merry Christmas everyone
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:46 AM   #6
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

Cool Hand Lurker, I understand your point and stance. I havent contacted him further and don't plan too. However what I told him about the vehicle wasn't mistaken it was fact. I didn't interefere in any way with the sale, just wanted to give him a FIY if he was open to it. After answereing his question in his first response I said my piece and that was that. No reason to "Back off" now....
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

I tend to agree with others. I often find this forum and another Club-specific forums are very bad to stick their nose into others business in this regard making armchair appraisals or nitpicking someone else's property. I feel that often times people will be brazen enough to say things to people while hiding behind a computer screen that would never be mentioned in public. For example, imagine being at a public car auction and the auctioneer says "Lookie here boys & girls, he we have a 'classic' 1966 Ford Mustang ...." --and someone from the audience interupts the auctioneer and says "Sir, that really isn't a 'classic' because to truly be considered a classic it must meet the criteria of the Classic Car Club of America!" Imagine the response from other folks within earshot!!

Most of us would never consider saying such a thing publicly even though we know the facts. I do believe this is what governmental control has done for society in general in that some feel anyone that is a potential buyer needs to have oversight. Personally I tend to believe anyone that is a serious bidder for this car is NOT making the purchase for authenticity, ...but because they want it to fulfil their own desire. Therefore only they can determine the vehicle's value as it aligns with their desires and uses. IMO we do not have any business trying to interject our own opinions into someone else's business unless they have solicited for our opinion.

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Old 12-22-2012, 12:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

In the sellers own words: THIS TRUCK GIVES A NEW MEANING TO THE WORD "RESTORED".

It is a nice looking truck.

Last edited by J Franklin; 12-22-2012 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

ctlikon, in re-reading my post I see that it was not composed too kindly. Sorry about that but I seem to do that a lot.
You say it was fact and I won't argue that, but the seller can only put in an ad those things that he knows and can stand behind. Anything else can only get him in trouble. And when info comes from another "expert" how does he know that it is fact? He doesn't know, so he can't put it into the ad even if it is correct info. This reminds me of how many times somebody came up to my car and said "that color isn't correct".......
My life isn't long enough to gain enough knowledge to know everything that would be right about a Model A so I just stick to how-to-do-it advice based on my experience. And I know that in everything there is more than one way to do it.
Peace.
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

Has anyone else noticed that the sellers "defence" was much better worded than the original presentation?
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

Fair Dos to you Craig - some people just don't appreciate the value of information especially when it is for free.

You did the right thing in my mind & thanks for sharing.

Bob
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

we have got to quit trying to inspire any sense of ethics in these car dealers on eBay.
I wasted a few minutes of my time last week on another one, partly because of a fellow Fordbarner's overly charitable opinion of how such communication would be received.
hopefully I will not do so again unless asked for an opinion.
these sellers just do not care about a buyer getting hosed on one of these deals.
it's like the angst we suffer when a very nice Model A gets rodded.
relax. let it go. do something fun instead. your blood pressure will thank you :-)
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

Brent, I think that is a very true hypothesis. If I saw the vehicle and owner in person I would have still approached him if he claimed it was a restored original. I might have colored my statements differently, but then again he might would have seen my genuine motive to be a honest, benevolent advisor not a critic seeking an online thrill.
Cool Hand Lurker, no worries. I put this out there just as a sounding board of my peers. I knew there would be both sides of the coin here. I also see where I could have posed my first letter to him better but it was first thing in the morning for me. Maybe I should have asked him what he meant by "restored" and if he knew of any of the indicators I ended up mentioning.
Craig, yes I noticed that too and thought it was funny how he seemed to justify his position by how many and how much he has. Good for him, I just hope it isn't gained from unsuspecting consumers.
BobbyG, Its funny you commented here. I kind of was thinking of your situation here. I have followed your questions about your car and how it was built by a "known builder" I believe was the term. I truly hope that you are still enjoying your car, even with the unforeseen challenges you have faced with it.
Chris, you are probably right. I just hate to see people taken.
Thanks for chiming in everyone.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

As a practical matter, IMO, many used car dealers selling on eBay
game their environment for their best advantage. Perhaps there's nothing wrong with misstating the model or detailing one aspect of the restoration as exact while ignoring a wood windshield frame or slipping in phantom bids. Clitkon has the experience and the eye for Model A's as most of you do (I do not). Telling the dealer that he has an opinion about the "truth" of the adverstisement is certainly as Amercian as apple pie. My take is that yaztecautoga is a little thin skinned while protecting his turf and his grand 2 million dollar inventory. Yet, Brent is right that the eventual buyer will decide what's right for his own garage. There are way too few people like you all that know the difference between a Traveler and a station wagon and way too many who sell cars based on a misstatement.

Last edited by Skibb; 12-22-2012 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:50 PM   #15
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

Yep, got to be careful with these E-bay Car Flippers. They don't care about cars, they care about making a profit off of cars. I saw an ad for a 1941 Buick a guy was selling--he apparently bought a collection of a few dozen cars. He posted an ad with the initial estate sale/for sale signs on the car. The car was offered at the estate sale for $4,995. The guy sent me the photos and was asking for $9,995. I asked him if there was $5,000 cash in the glove box. He wanted to know why I would ask such a question. I pointed out the discrepancy of the price in the photo and the price he was asking. He said that I wasnt' supposed to see those photos. He then took down all of his ads and cleansed them of the offending for sale signs with his initial estate sale purchase prices on them. Oh yeah, then he offered me the car for $7,995. I told him to take a jump. I don't deal with car flippers. TM
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

You can lead a horse to water. After all he is a professional used car salesman you know, only used on Sundays by a little old lady.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

I've done the same in the past and have had positive responses and negative as well.

Anymore I avoid commenting on anything. Let the judges at the shows do that....
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:22 PM   #18
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

I've have done the same thing and notified a seller, but sometimes trying to educate someone who asks no assistance is like p-ssing in the wind. Certainly some are out to deceive buyers but I like to think that most are just ignorant of the facts and especially those slight nuances that some of us in the hobby thrive on.
When I do contact someone now I do it in a constructive way and for the most part it is warmly received.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

EBAY=Buyer Beware. JMO
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:44 PM   #20
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Default Re: So, was I in the wrong for trying to educate the 3bay seller?

I don't have any issue with what you did. I've done it before, thinking that perhaps the seller may not know, and trying to save them some aggravation. I've had people thank me, and I've had people tell me to get lost.
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