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Old 03-17-2012, 11:47 AM   #1
juke joint johnny
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Default Model B adjustable Lifters ?

I've only discovered this great site a few weeks ago , But I've had Model A's since 1975.
I have a model B diamond block engine that I built for my 30 roadster project. I have used stainless valves and the B cam with model A adjustable lifters from Bratton's but I have not run the engine. I discovered Vince Falters excellent site on here and he mentions not to mix A+B cams and lifters because the diameter of the lifter base is much smaller with pictures of a trashed cam and a ruined lifter after only a few miles.

So my Question is does anyone make Model B adjustable lifters? if yes where can I buy them? or do I have to go back to the solid originals?

John
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Its been awhile since I have bought lifters, but a set of the so called double nut lock lifters I had were about .995 in diameter. Stock specs called for a lifter base of 1.110-1.125 for the A. I have not seen B specs but understand they are the same. One set of the " single" lock I bought were 1.17 and worked fine on a modified A cam and I think is the one shown in Vince's picture. Had another set once that was 1.110. I guess the lesson is to measure them before you buy or use them. The cam grinder guys Brierely and Stipe will know a lot more about what can be used. YOu can check it out when you assemble the engine. Use Prussian Blue on the lifter base and the cam lobe wiping mark should be entirely within the base diameter.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:34 PM   #3
ursus
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

The currently available single lock lifters are are 1.170 inches wide at the foot versus 1.187 inches for the stock B lifters. I prefer the stock B lifters on a stock B cam, but fitting them up is labor intensive, more so if your top deck has ever been planed. Many will simply use the single lock lifters, albeit with the fact that the cam will wear a bit faster and there will be more noise from lifters than drop faster because of the small lifter base.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:09 PM   #4
ursus
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Actually, Vince, my reference point was to the currently available single-lock adjustables and, if you measure one of your B tappets, you will find the base at or close to 1.1875 inches, per Ford's drawings.
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:22 AM   #5
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

What lifter did Ford use when they built the Model A diamond block with the B cam?
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:04 AM   #6
Marco Tahtaras
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg View Post
What lifter did Ford use when they built the Model A diamond block with the B cam?
They could only use B lifters. B lifters are also taller to compensate for the smaller lobe heel on the B cam.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:21 AM   #7
Bill Stipe
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

If you have a NOS B cam yes you must run the large 1-3/6 diameter foot lifter. I design my regrinds andd new cams to run on the largest available lifter today which is the 1-1/8. I would think most guys regrinding would do the same I would said forsure that Jim Brierly watches this when he has his reginds done also.
John if you bought a B cam from Brattons it is most likely my cam, regrind or new so it will have the correct profile I would ask Jeff or Walt.

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Old 03-18-2012, 05:23 PM   #8
juke joint johnny
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

A Big Thank You !!
to everyone who has answered my call for help. I now realise I must put the original lifters back in the engine , [so glad I kept them don't throw anything away!!]
It's the original cam only the double nut lifters ,valves , and
springs came from Brattons. It's a low mileage Diamond block engine that was originally mounted on a fire pump and used in the London Blitz!! it has very little wear but the valves were a bit burnt probaly due to the very poor quality gas that was available during the war. You can all take comfort in knowing that you have helped save a bit of history.
John
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Johnny,



Since you said that the valves were burned you might double check this:
Maybe someone used the Model A camshaft Exhaust valve clearances in the past.

The original B cam and lifters requires .015 intake

and .022 on exhaust as noted on the link that Vince Falter(www.fordgarage) posted above.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/camshaftspecs.htm

In yellow table:

Intake Valve Design Clearance is .015
Exhaust Valve Design Clearance is .022
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:17 PM   #10
juke joint johnny
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Benson your probably on to something there as the B engines used on pumps and for other industrial purposes in England had the exhaust valves set at 18 thou instead of 22. I don't know if that was the same in the USA .I guess they thought that they would just be run at idle speed. I know some one who put one of these engines in his sedan , it would idle real good perfect but when out on the road no guts at all !!! When he opened those exhaust valves up it ran fine
John
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by juke joint johnny View Post
Benson your probably on to something there as the B engines used on pumps and for other industrial purposes in England had the exhaust valves set at 18 thou instead of 22. I don't know if that was the same in the USA .I guess they thought that they would just be run at idle speed. I know some one who put one of these engines in his sedan , it would idle real good perfect but when out on the road no guts at all !!! When he opened those exhaust valves up it ran fine
John
Yes I had a similar problem. In Feb 1969 I bought one the first VW Type 3 Fastbacks with Electronic Fuel Injection. Because it was air cooled the valves were adjusted every 3000 miles. I was towing a trailer with 2 dirt bikes up a long 8% grade west of town every weekend.

The engine would lose power when it got hot from pulling the grade at 60 MPH in third gear, just like you discribed in your post. Factory clearance was .004 on I and E. I adjusted Exhaust valves at .006 and problem went away. I told my friend who owned a VW dealership about what I had found.

Six months later the factory issued a Service bulletin to adjust at .006! ... I guess the factory guys liked the idea!

I hope it works out for you!
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:41 AM   #12
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

I also had one of the VW Type 3 (Squareback) with EFI. Factory Point setting, as well as spark plug gap were all screwed up. When I set them like I thought they should be, it ran much better. It's been so long ago that I don't remember the exact settings, but I do know that anytime I had it serviced by the dealership it came back set to factory specs and I had to change it all over again.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:54 AM   #13
Jim Brierley
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

The 1 1/8" lifters work fine on most if not all performance grinds although I use stock B lifters on my Bonneville engine with a divot taken out of the top for the push-rod to recess into. If a larger foot is desired other lifters such as flathead Chrysler lifters will fit with a slight enlargement of the bore in the block, this is sometimes needed anyway as the block can wear and cause an odd noise as the lifter rotates and clearance comes and goes.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

I have a set of unused Colony double lock lifters I purchased in a bundle of parts from an estate sale, they have the .995 base, I understand the stock A base width is 1.110, would the narrower based lifters damage a stock camshaft, I wish to sell them but would not want someone to damage a good camshaft.
Thanks Brian T.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:00 PM   #15
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
I have a set of unused Colony double lock lifters I purchased in a bundle of parts from an estate sale, they have the .995 base, I understand the stock A base width is 1.110, would the narrower based lifters damage a stock camshaft, I wish to sell them but would not want someone to damage a good camshaft.
Thanks Brian T.
I would say YES, due to the fact the lobe will strike the sharp outer edge of the lifter. I also have a set of double locks that I will not be using. They might be OK with some regrinds, but I'd check either by visual or by using blueing to see the contact area.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:23 PM   #16
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Are the "correct" lifters available??
Paul in CT
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

I would be interested in a set of non adjustable B lifters if anyone has some available. Please send me a PM or call me at Five Four Zero-Three Two Five-One Four Zero Six if you can help.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:04 AM   #18
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

I’ve been following this post for a couple of days and it was interesting to me for a couple of reasons: One being I just bought a cam from Jim Brierley, and he warned me about buying the too small lifters. Another reminded of something I’d read, but I couldn’t remember the numbers, so I had to go back and look it up…
This was in a book about SBC valve trains, and they were comparing the stock lifter diameter (.842) and the allowable rate of lift ( .007 in/deg) with that of the SBF, ( .875 and .00755 in/deg). I did a little cross multiplying and interpolated these numbers out to be .009707 in/deg for a 1.125 lifter and .0102 for the 1.1875 lifter. Is this reasonable or did I do the math wrong? Or can you even compare a rocker arm setup to a direct acting lifter?
If frugal Mr. Ford thought it was important enough to change his pushrods, I just wonder why nobody is doing it today? I realize the market would be small, but I would think that anybody wanting a new or reground cam would want the correct size, adjustable lifter.
Maybe its just not worth the difference, or maybe Mr. Stipe and Mr. Brierley ( and others) would just rather use a little less aggressive lobe and not run the risk of increased wear and noise.
One more question, are the lifters convex to promote sliding/rotation, and are they hardened/ chilled iron? Just curious if you could turn a set in a lathe that would last or if any home made attempts like this would disintegrate…
Thanks for anybody’s thoughts…just trying to learn a little here.Looking forward to hear what the pros have tp say.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:47 AM   #19
d.j. moordigian
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

Rex,

I didn't check your math but I do know about what your saying. I know they put
Ford lifters in Chevy's to improve performance(changing the cam profile-also) Also
when rollers are outlawed, "mushroom lifters" were used when the rules permitted.

About 2 years ago, on ebay, a set of NOS "B" lifters sold for about $125.00. Jim is
right on about the Chrysler flathead lifters...I have them in my "B" engine. I've even
heard that they are putting Chevy lifters in 948-1275 CC British BMC engines!

Dudley
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:46 PM   #20
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Default Re: Model B adjustable Lifters ?

I sent an email to Jim Ketchum at Egge asking about the base measurement of Egge Model B lifters. Here is what he said:

Subject: RE: !933 Ford valve lifter - catalog number F200MB quesition


The head or base diameter of our lifters are 1.140.
Thank you,


Jim Ketchum
Customer Service Lead

FYI from Benson: Egge does carry a lifter for A and B which is .015 larger just in case your lifter bores are oblong or loose. But I understand that the base is still 1.140

F200M-015
F200MB-015

Last edited by Benson; 03-22-2012 at 09:11 AM. Reason: spelling
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