600 W oil / STP

[Bobster]

I am doing some work on the rear axle on my 1928 Roadster. I was going to fill the banjo with 600 W oil, but a fellow restorer claims that STP added to the mix will be beneficial. STP is thick and may not circulate about as well as the 600 W equivalent. I have one source that claims the "modern" 600 W is nothing more than 140 W gear lube. What is the best way to go here. I don't want to "gum" up the works. Thanks, BW

[Ron/IA]

Bobster - IMHO, I don't feel you need to add STP to the 600w oil. Others have, and they believe there are benefits. My experience using only 600w has been ok in my transmission and differential.

You may already know this, but 600w oil is not 600-weight oil. In terms of consistency, 600w oil is similar to the consistency of 140-weight gear oil (just my perception, others may differ). Others still have used 140-weight gear oil from the parts stores, and have gotten along fine.

STP is marketed as an additive for (again IMHO) over-coming oil consumption in engines. I would stick with the manufacturers suggestion.

I guess my short answer would be you will not have lubrication problems using the 600w oil sold by the Model A parts vendors.

[Patrick L.]

From all the STUFF that I have read, 600W is anywhere from 160-250 weight.. I happen to be happy with plain ole 140 weight.. Back when Studebaker owned STP we had to try and sell that crap to everyone that walked thru the door.. I think you can tell from that statement what I think of the product,, but,, it does make for a nice assembly lube..

[John LaVoy]

Several years ago we had the 600W tested by a chemist. They reported you could get the same benefits by using 140 W and STP using 75% 140W and 25% STP. SInce then we found another product called Lubriplate SPO288 which is made for lubricating straight cut gears. See the Model A Times Vol 1 Issue 1 and Vol 5 Issue 1.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Lubriplate SPO 288 and SPO 299 are specifically engineered for spur-gear and worm gear drives, and are modern equivalents for 600 weight heavy gear oil.

600W seems to be a little confusing - some reference sources define it as "steam cylinder oil", which is a heavy, clinging oil designed to be used in the presence of water. From the data I have read from modern refiners / suppliers, the modern equivalents for 600 gear oil are NOT good for applications which will expose the lube to water/moisture.

Steam cylinder is still available too.

One of the chief "safe qualities" of 600 weight heavy gear oil is that it is safe for use with "yellow metals" ( bronze / brass / copper ). Most modern gear lubes contain sulfur compounds, which attack and corrode yellow metals.

[Mike V. Florida]

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If you buy the stuff from the Model A vendors, 99% of them use 160-240 weight oil with STP already added.

Those that don't advertise the fact that is it "true"" Mobil 600W.

Wher did you get yours and what did the bottle say?

[Bobster]

Snyder's and Bratton's advertise the 600 W oil. Don't doubt their claims for authenticity / duplication of original lubricants. STP was touted to add life to your worn engine back in the 70's. It effectively stopped up the flow of oil in my 1988 Oldsmobile and caused some overhead valve problems - rocker arms went dry. I have had some apprehensions about STP since then. Model A motor / drive train might forgive or need heavier lubricant. BW

[Bobster]

I have ordered inner axle seals from 2 providers. Neither of the suppliers shipped a seal with a supporting spring backing the rubber . The originals have a spring. Since these seals keep the oil out of the hub bearing, I am thinking they should be more substantially made. Have I latched on to a cheap after market part? Are better / heavier seals offered? Don't want to do this again in near future. Thanks, BW

[Freddie (Memphis)]

Bob, I would think your post would get more attention if it were posted to a new thread in the general Model A forum. This thread is about 600w oil and STP...not inner seals.

Just MHO...

[Steve Miller]

Posted this by mistake under another topic, you may want to check it out. Scroll down to the bottom.

http://www.modelatrader.com/tip.html

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

From all the STUFF that I have read, 600W is anywhere from 160-250 weight.. I happen to be happy with plain ole 140 weight.. Back when Studebaker owned STP we had to try and sell that crap to everyone that walked thru the door.. I think you can tell from that statement what I think of the product,, but,, it does make for a nice assembly lube..

Aside from Assembly, which it is good for, What's wrong with STP? I've read somewhere it had a "sticky" quality that oil doesn't have. Also, I had a friend who said that engines that were lubed with STP would run longer with out oil than those on straight oil. (Not much longer, but longer) I admit, I never tested it out. But I used STP as an additive for years with
no ill effects. However. It doesn't work in Ford/Mazda 5 speed transmissions. If you have one, DON'T put STP in it. In the case of engines, did I waste my money adding it for all those years?
Terry

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

Lubriplate SPO 288 and SPO 299 are specifically engineered for spur-gear and worm gear drives, and are modern equivalents for 600 weight heavy gear oil.

600W seems to be a little confusing - some reference sources define it as "steam cylinder oil", which is a heavy, clinging oil designed to be used in the presence of water. From the data I have read from modern refiners / suppliers, the modern equivalents for 600 gear oil are NOT good for applications which will expose the lube to water/moisture.

Steam cylinder is still available too.

One of the chief "safe qualities" of 600 weight heavy gear oil is that it is safe for use with "yellow metals" ( bronze / brass / copper ). Most modern gear lubes contain sulfur compounds, which attack and corrode yellow metals.

We had this conversation overf in "Yesterdays Tractors" a while ago. Some said the sulphur compounds in GL5, GL4 an GL3 would take out the "yellow metals". I think that the GL1 lubricant was the only one with these compounds. I don't believe GL1 is being made any more. There were some good equivalents. The best I think was a general purpose tractor lube/hydraulic fluid. The Transmission, rear lube and hyd. fluid were all from the same resevior in the early Ford N-series tractors. This fluid, though modern, was compatable with the bearing of the older tractors.
It was similiar to the case "Hy-Tran" oil I use I use in my Case 580E backhoe. I have always wondered if this would work in the Mod A rear. Anybody know?
Terry

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Aside from Assembly, which it is good for, What's wrong with STP? I've read somewhere it had a "sticky" quality that oil doesn't have. Also, I had a friend who said that engines that were lubed with STP would run longer with out oil than those on straight oil. (Not much longer, but longer) I admit, I never tested it out. But I used STP as an additive for years with
no ill effects. However. It doesn't work in Ford/Mazda 5 speed transmissions. If you have one, DON'T put STP in it. In the case of engines, did I waste my money adding it for all those years?
Terry

STP is not a lubricant. It thickens any oil it is added to. A lubricant is a branched chain paraffinic hydrocarbon. Consider this, the lube oil is diluted by the STP. Does that sound good to you?

Why use STP to thicken (and dilute) a lubricant when lubricants are available that are the proper viscosity(thickness) AND are 100% lubricant?

[skip]

Just run 600 oil from Bratton's and be done with it.

skip.

[Patrick L.]

STP is not a lubricant, it is a viscosity modifier[whatever that is].. Personally, I don't want my viscosity modified.. When I was young we did have a number of vehicles come back[ Fords,,, no Studebakers] with defective center mains from lack of lubrication appearing to be from the STP.. We never really recommended its use, regardless of what Studebaker wanted, but some customers wanted it..STP was about the only thing I ever found wrong with Studebaker, hehehe.. A few similar instances occurred when Slick 50 first came out[ we never sold or recommended that crap but some customers would add it]..
As far as adding STP to our tail ends or transmitters, I doubt it would hurt much as long as it was added within reason[ the less the better].. I find they operate just fine however with plain ole 140 wgt. In fact, it appears to me that they seem to be happier downshifting when using the lighter oil, but, that may just be my imagination..

[Mike V. Florida]

This has been debated here before. You will read about the guy that has used straight STP for 10's of thousands of miles with no problems.

I buy mine from the vendors but If I were to rebuild an entire car I would buy yhe 240 stuff and add STP to save on shipping and the cost of the oil.

[Ron in Quincy]

I've used a mixture of 140 gear oil and STP in the differentail for a lot of years; I also use a 50-50 mix in the transmission.

The ring gear in the differentail picks up the heaver STP and keeps it circulating ; the same thing happens with the cluster gear in the transmission.

Ron

[Terry, NJ]

Thanks for getting back on this. Now I'm a little smarter than I was. This Slick 50 is a scam. Period. Over in Yesterday's Tractors we had a guy, who a tric*****ologist (Friction expert) explain that teflon in an engine was a joke which pretty much agrees with my conclusions about teflon and heat. Thanks again.

Terry

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

STP is not a lubricant, it is a viscosity modifier[whatever that is].. Personally, I don't want my viscosity modified.. When I was young we did have a number of vehicles come back[ Fords,,, no Studebakers] with defective center mains from lack of lubrication appearing to be from the STP.. We never really recommended its use, regardless of what Studebaker wanted, but some customers wanted it..STP was about the only thing I ever found wrong with Studebaker, hehehe.. A few similar instances occurred when Slick 50 first came out[ we never sold or recommended that crap but some customers would add it]..
As far as adding STP to our tail ends or transmitters, I doubt it would hurt much as long as it was added within reason[ the less the better].. I find they operate just fine however with plain ole 140 wgt. In fact, it appears to me that they seem to be happier downshifting when using the lighter oil, but, that may just be my imagination..

[bobbycoke]

hey fellows is it just me or what but the 600w that model a suppliers sell works great and how much do you buy? I change motor oil each 500 miles , transmisson, rearend, steering box maybe once a decade[ a total of two quarts] so the 8-9 dollars a quart breaks down to under $2 a year..... use what we know works and keep driving.... the 500 miles works out to about 3 or 4 times a year pop worded for ford and ford dealers for 60 years had great sucess with his cars he said "the best oil to use is clean oil" which means change early and often and if it has a filter change that at each oil change....

[Old182]

I agree with Patrick: STP is a great assembly lube, but it kind of stops there. The major components of STP Oil Treatment are long-chain polymers called VI (viscosity index) improvers, and they are the compounds used to make single-grade (i.e. SAE 30) into multi-grade (i.e. SAE 10w-30) oils. If you add STP to your single-grade oil, you will make it a multi-grade, but with unknown viscosity. I believe the long-chain polymers are what help to stop oil consumption (because they are viscous), but we all know it's a band-aid effect.

[Purdy Swoft]

I now use the type that Snyders sells, it is said to be 250#. A few years ago I read that straight STP was the way to go so I tried it. I noticed that my other model A's shifted better on the 600 equivalent sold by the model A vendors. I had to heat the transmission case with a heat gun to get the STP out.

[Karl]

Penrite have a range of oils specifically designed for vintage (and veteran ) use .Penrite 140 Transoil is according to Penrite the same as 600W. Also comes as Transoil 250. Easy to get Safe with yellow metal . Have used both for 5 years in three cars (including the rear end of my 1910 Hupmobile ) with no problems . Anecdotal I know !

[Uncle Bob]

I'd like to toss in a little info for those who like to expand what they know, not looking to put anyone down.

That W thing seems to steer people around a little. The 600W nomenclature dates back more than 100 years, and as noted in a couple previous posts it's origins were as a steam cylinder oil. It also found good use in worm gears. The common element there is lubricating sliding action. Back then that was assisted by the use of whale oil as it was discovered to have a highly polar (think like a magnet) molecular structure. So it stuck well. Since the use of whale oil is now verboten other similar acting chemicals are employed. The W on 600 grade meant there was whale oil added, has nothing to do with "weight", or viscosity. This is not to be confused with the W designation in multi-grade oils. That W stands for winter, not weight as some may believe. Multigrade oils are graded for low temperature flow properties (thus winter), whereas straight grades (e.g. SAE 30) are not. There's more to that story, but who knows if there's sufficient interest.

Oil companies put out lots of info if you know to look for it, for lubricants it's often beneficial to read these data sheets.........solves a lot of misinformation. As noted above, one of us was told that today's 600w isn't for steam cylinders anymore. Whoever told him that was misinformed. Here's a link to a data sheet for Mobil 600w, clearly identified for that application. http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/...linder_Oil.asp Though we may not be too familiar with that application in our day to day lives, a reasonable number of industries world wide still do.

As for what other gear oil viscosity grade the 600w most resembles the data sheet can answer that question too. Viscosity grading is based on rate of flow. Modern standards measure that in a unit of measure called a centistoke, abreviated as cST. Since temperature affects that rate of flow, the measure is always reported at a specified temperature. So, if you look at the data sheet for 600w, it measures 27 centistokes at 100c (aprox 212f for those who don't care for metric). Here's the data sheet for Mobil HD gear lube; http://www.mobil.com/Australia-Engli...90_85W-140.asp
If you look at the 85w140 grade at 100c you'll see it measures 25.3 centistokes, close enough to be the "same" as 600w at that temp. The sharp of eye might also have caught the difference at 40c that may or may not be meaningful to you.

BTW, I'm not pushing Mobil products, they just have good info that's easily accessed. Hope some of you are still awake by this point in the post.

[Patrick L.]

Hehehe, I kinda nodded-off, but just woke up and finished reading your post..Hehehe..

[Barry in St.Paul]

thanks Uncle Bob, I found that interesting and informative. My question is: if the correct viscosity (and lubricity) oils are available, why do the parts-suppliers add things like STP? Is their blend (thinking of Brattons and Snyders, have not tried the others) higher or lower viscosity than the straight stuff from Mobil or similar? I've only used Brattons recently, and Snyders years ago, but reading all this lately about the Mobil and other "correct out of the drum" oils makes me want to try some and see how it compares. (25 years ago when I graduated, I WAS a Mechanical Engineer, so this topic fascinates me :-)

[hotrodart]

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A buddy of mine was the chief chemist at a "Fortune 500" company and added STP regularly in his Honda motor cycle engine and gear box. He was sponsored by Honda for racing and found STP to get him another 1000rpm on the track. The gear box shifted better and no excessive wear was found during tear downs. Not truly scientific, but you cannot argue with the data.......

[Special Coupe Frank]

I just priced Lubriplate SPO-299 at my local distributor... 5-gallon pail was about $110, plus shipping.

Supposedly, Lubriplate also packages it in 2lb bottles (probably have to buy a case), but that option was not offered to me.

I'm all for using the real stuff, if it's out there... the Brass car guys do NOT use STP.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

If you look at the 85w140 grade at 100c you'll see it measures 25.3 centistokes, close enough to be the "same" as 600w at that temp. The sharp of eye might also have caught the difference at 40c that may or may not be meaningful to you.

You're on the right track but looking at the wrong data. I sure hope your trans, steering, etc., don't operate at 100°c (212°f)! I've marked up the chart below for clarity.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Marco,

This chart is a veritable "Rosetta Stone" !

Thank you !

The original owners' manual for my Grandad's '54 Chevy truck references the Saybolt viscosity index... that's the only place I've encountered that metric in "real life"...

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by hotrodart

A buddy of mine was the chief chemist at a "Fortune 500" company and added STP regularly in his Honda motor cycle engine and gear box. He was sponsored by Honda for racing and found STP to get him another 1000rpm on the track. The gear box shifted better and no excessive wear was found during tear downs. Not truly scientific, but you cannot argue with the data.......

To me that sounds as believable as the folks that claim massive increases in fuel economy after changing over to synthetic motor oil! Setting that aside however, did you ever ask him if tried 50% or more STP? I'd be shocked if he did so.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

You're on the right track but looking at the wrong data. I sure hope your trans, steering, etc., don't operate at 100°c (212°f)! I've marked up the chart below for clarity.

OOOO, somebody is interested in this stuff!! You might notice in my full post I said something along the lines of "there's more to this......". Part of what I've learned on automotive forums is there's limited interest in the guts of lubrication..........something akin to "too much information". I get that and try to post accordingly. Without getting too far out into the weeds, you've done the same thing you "accused" me of (though I doubt you meant it in a negative way). I chose the measure at 100c on purpose because that's the only temperature that you can compare a straight grade like 600w and a multi-grade like 85w140. I probably should have stuck with straight grade to straight grade. The w indicated multigrades are measured at various -c temperatures also, whereas straight grades aren't. There's no way a 600w is going to meet the same spec as the 85w portion of 85w140. But I'm glad you've taken the effort to post this chart for those who might be interested.

BTW, those that are using the very heavy oils up toward the 250 grade could be operating at close to 200f in their tranmissions if they're doing any prolonged highway driving. Fluid friction produces heat as well.

Originally Posted by Barry in St.Paul

thanks Uncle Bob, I found that interesting and informative. My question is: if the correct viscosity (and lubricity) oils are available, why do the parts-suppliers add things like STP? Is their blend (thinking of Brattons and Snyders, have not tried the others) higher or lower viscosity than the straight stuff from Mobil or similar? ....:-)

Thanks Barry,
I have no idea why they choose to do that. Could be a marketing decision to hit the beliefs of the fattest part of the market, could be what they really believe, whether it's realistic or not. Posts 15 and 20 have some mostly accurate info about the chemistry of STP from what I remember from years ago. Long chain polymers are used to make multigrade oils multigrade. Let's use the 10w40 for an example. The first concept to recall is that most lubricants thin as they heat up. What the description 10w40 tells us (per specification definitions) is that it flows at the same rate as a SAE 10 grade at a specified -c, and at the same rate as a SAE 40 at 100c. What the long chain polymer (viscosity index improver), which is the bulk of the material in a can of STP and other similar products, does is slow down the "natural" rate of thinning of the SAE 10 oil. So what folks do when they add this type of aftermarket additive is bend the viscosity curve of the original lubricant making it thin less at higher temps than it normally would without modification.

There's lots more to this but this is basic info to stimulate thought and research.

[Barry in St.Paul]

Interesting stuff! Thanks Marco and Uncle Bob. I looked up Lubriplates data sheet for SPO288 and SPO299. Importantly, is specifically says it is safe for 'yellow metals'. Viscosity-wise, at 40C & 100C the SPO288 is 628cST & 38cST. The SPO299 is 950cST and 50cST (seems a little high unless you live in Arizona..?) So, the SPO288 does seem to be comparable to the original 600W, right? Best of all, you supposedly can get this in qts, per the photo in Model-A times (thanks for referencing that article John L., I went back and looked it up). I'm going to see where I can buy some SPO288 in qts or order it at least, and try it out.

[Barry in St.Paul]

hmmmm, just found this on a Franklin web-site when searching for SPO 288. Looks like I need to investigate this a bit more. This is a letter response to a Franklin club member, from Lubriplate:
------
Our APG Series does have sulfur in it. SPO oils do not contain any sulfur.
Normally, we do not recommend EP gear oils with sulfur on bronze and brass
gears. However, in your situation, I would recommend the continued use of
the APG-140. Being that it is an antique car, the benefits of the EP
additive outweigh the sulfur-bronze issue. You must use an EP gear oil for
automotive applications. Our SPO Series does not have any EP additives.
Sincerely,
Dan Moroses
Lubriplate Division
Fiske Brothers Refining Co

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Barry in St.Paul

Viscosity-wise, at 40C & 100C the SPO288 is 628cST & 38cST. The SPO299 is 950cST and 50cST (seems a little high unless you live in Arizona..?) So, the SPO288 does seem to be comparable to the original 600W, right? Best of all, you supposedly can get this in qts, .......

Looking at the Mobil 600W, the viscosity numbers are 375 & 27 respectively. So there's actually a fair bit of difference when compared to the 288. However, if we look at the reference chart Marco put up it shows they are both within the range (a pretty wide one) for the SAE Gear 140 grade. The 600 is at the very bottom (light) end, the 288 at the extreme opposite. Technically they're the same grade, and given that most of the automotive equipment we're dealing with here (not familiar enough with the Franklin you referenced though) is pretty tolerant of a wide variety of products (just look at all the variants enumerated in this thread). We're dealing with spur and helical gears (except the steering) which are relatively easy to lubricate, relying mostly on viscosity, less so on benefits attributed to additive performance. Hypoid gears are much more demanding because of the sliding action at tooth interface rather than rolling action, thus the need for EP additives there. Personally I'm not in the "more is better" camp for most things, so wouldn't go with the heaviest products. Mainly because of the fluid friction thing I mentioned earlier. In some cases where it may be necessary to compensate for some mechanical issues, maybe, but not in something that's in spec.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Originally Posted by Barry in St.Paul

Interesting stuff! Thanks Marco and Uncle Bob. I looked up Lubriplates data sheet for SPO288 and SPO299. Importantly, is specifically says it is safe for 'yellow metals'. Viscosity-wise, at 40C & 100C the SPO288 is 628cST & 38cST. The SPO299 is 950cST and 50cST (seems a little high unless you live in Arizona..?) So, the SPO288 does seem to be comparable to the original 600W, right? Best of all, you supposedly can get this in qts, per the photo in Model-A times (thanks for referencing that article John L., I went back and looked it up). I'm going to see where I can buy some SPO288 in qts or order it at least, and try it out.

Barry,

If you find a source for SPO-288 in quart quantities, please let us know where to get it.

Thanks !

Frank

[Barry in St.Paul]

Update on the Lubriplate: found a great supplier of qt bottles. Looks like a supplier I'll bookmark for a lot of restoration supplies that will come in handy for my '28 Studebaker! We get spoiled with all the Model-A suppliers available.... but for other old cars, this place has a ton of great material that is difficult to find elsewhere..!!
Website: http://www.restorationstuff.com/index.htm
this is the info on Lubriplate SPO277 and SPO288 from their website. I'm going to go with the SPO288:

140W Gear Oil

For transmissions and rear ends with straight, worm, or spiral bevel; good in cold weather or if the vehicle is hard shifting with heavier oils. LubriPlate SPO-277 LUB010 $12.50/qt

250W Gear Oil

A heaver, tacky cohesive oil for transmissions and rear axles where heavier oil is required. It can also be used with spiral/bevel or older hypoid gears. LubriPlate SPO-288 LUB012 $12.50/qt

[19Fordy]

Here,s more discussion of oil.
http://www.nvrg.org/meet/Pubs/TECH%20TIP%20booklet.pdf

[nhusa]

I am getting a headache reading this.
Does anyone have the Cliff notes version ?

[FL&WVMIKE]

I have used straight STP in my steering boxes, for decades, with no problems or excessive wear.
I don't use it in my gear boxes or rear ends, for the fear that it might all, stick to the insides of the cases.
MIKE (mikeburch)

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by nhusa

I am getting a headache reading this.
Does anyone have the Cliff notes version ?

Sure:
"Use the 600W oil that the Model A parts vendors sell and don't worry about it."

[RonC]

Not sure what each vendor sells but these are the closest modern equivalents to the 600W steam cylinder oil originally used in the Model A transmission, rear end and steering box:

Mobilgear 600 XP 680
BP Energol GR-XP 680
Castrol Alpha LS680
Shell Omala 680
Texaco Meropa 680