H&H Flatheads

[dschwartz]

Beware of H&H Flatheads.
I Dan Schwartz bought from Jody Martin a 59AB block that was repaired and machine by H&H Flatheads of La Crescenta, Ca.

The motor has been used for about two thousands miles with the results of:

• Eight sleeves that were installed and bored and honed were done incorrect which has resulted in heavy blow by and excessive oil use. The sleeves have moved down in the block two thousands of an inch. The metal in sleeve no 2 cylinder has failed with small patched of voids in the cylinder walls. Water is leaking into cylinders 1 and 2.

• The sealer paint that was used was done wrong which resulted in the paint flaking and got into the oil passages.

H&H will not stand behind there work and refuses to compensate me for my loses.

[37ford4dr]

well good luck with your dispute and sorry for you misfortune.....was Jody Martin part of H&H or a third party? if its a third party in between you and H&H i can see their reluctance to settle with you.

[xix32]

i trust that you have done an accurate inspection, before you posted these remarks.
here is your quote: "The sleeves have moved down in the block two thousands of an inch."
since normal copy paper is about four thousands ( .004") are you saying the sleeves have moved down 1/2 the thickness of a piece of common paper? how did you measure that?

[dschwartz]

Thank you for your replay 2 thousands 4 thousands the sleeves have moved down in the block and the metal in sleeve cylinder 2 has failed and is leaking water into the cylinder.
Dan

[John Kennedy]

Pictures would be helpful. So would correct grammar.

[dschwartz]

Thank you for the reply and the grammer lesson, sending you a picture of the block assembled I am looking for a picture of the block now with the sleeves moved.

[Ford Flathead]

I always stand behind my work but after 5 years and trading hands a warranty is out of the question on a machined block. To crack the block between cylinders shows over torquing. So no there can not be warranty after 5 years. I have built a reputation of standing behind my engines but this is way past the deadline. I am sorry this block did not work out but I am not in the position to hand out money 5 years later based on your word you assembled the engine correctly and never over heated the engine. If you came to me instead of the Internet I would have machined a new block for you.
Thanks
Mike
H&H Flatheads

[RPMREX]

Mike,
Your last sentence is not good to read. I take it as you saying "if you would have not told everyone I would have fixed it but now that you told everyone, I don't want to" I would have stuck with the 5 years later and owner assembled motor, may have overheated for voiding the warranty.
"If you came to me instead of the Internet I would have machined a new block for you." Really?

I am not trying to pick a fight,,,I have not used H&H and would if I needed a flathead. Just voicing my oponion. This is an open forum.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by dschwartz

Beware of H&H Flatheads.
I Dan Schwartz bought from Jody Martin a 59AB block that was repaired and machine by H&H Flatheads of La Crescenta, Ca.

The motor has been used for about two thousands miles with the results of:

• Eight sleeves that were installed and bored and honed were done incorrect which has resulted in heavy blow by and excessive oil use. The sleeves have moved down in the block two thousands of an inch. The metal in sleeve no 2 cylinder has failed with small patched of voids in the cylinder walls. Water is leaking into cylinders 1 and 2.

• The sealer paint that was used was done wrong which resulted in the paint flaking and got into the oil passages.

H&H will not stand behind there work and refuses to compensate me for my loses.

In your quote you state h&H refuses compensation either you spoke to him or you didn't. Which is it?

[Scott De Shields]

I did my homework on H+H before contracting them to put together a turn-key engine for me. I like the fact that they are a family owned business and I know other customers that have been happy with their work. They take their jobs seriously and believe they would have worked with Mr. Schwartz if he had taken the time to talk to Mike directly These engines are not cheap to build and investing in someone else to build one is diffently a leap of faith. My opinion

[Ford Flathead]

Originally Posted by RPMREX

Mike,
Your last sentence is not good to read. I take it as you saying "if you would have not told everyone I would have fixed it but now that you told everyone, I don't want to" I would have stuck with the 5 years later and owner assembled motor, may have overheated for voiding the warranty.
"If you came to me instead of the Internet I would have machined a new block for you." Really?

I am not trying to pick a fight,,,I have not used H&H and would if I needed a flathead. Just voicing my opinion. This is an open forum.

That is not what I meant by that buy that but it is always better to contact the parties involved rather than trying to spread misrepresentation on a forum.

[Hoop]

This is fun.

I once watched an episode of "Paper Chase" therefore I'm qualified to post.

Schwartz v. H&H

1. Does Schwartz have grounds to seek compensation from H&H for an engine block machined by H&H, but purchased from 3rd party, Jody Martin, the original purchaser from H&H?

2. Did Schwartz enter into a contract at any time with H&H?

3. Did Schwartz receive a warranty from either Jody Martin or H&H?

4. If any warranty existed after 5 years, did Jody Martin have the power to convey that warranty to Schwartz?

... excuse me, but the microwave just stopped beeping. My popcorn is ready.

[Ed Solari]

My concern is you have no idea what Jody Martin may or may not have done with the engine .... unless you live in the same house. I assume when you said H&H did the work you have documenation with the dates and exact work done. I do not know Jody, H&H, or you so my concern is what is documented as a direct result of H&H versus what is assumed. Unless you can provide a clean documented history of H&H to you one would wonder is a libel suit is a more appropriate discussion. Can you provide such documentation????? If you can not then I think that an internet discussion in inappropriate.

[Bassman/NZ]

I think H&H are quite right. 5 years is way too long, and in 99% of cases, the warranty only applies to the original purchaser, ie: Jody Martin.
Sorry DS, I dont think you have a case. FWIW: H&H are one of the most respected flathead shops in business,

[uncle max]

I can only speak to the dealings I've had with Mike at H&H.
If all my customers practiced business the way Mike does, the world would be a better place. Not once in over 50 transactions have I ever been disappointed.

[hbleadsled]

dschwartz- Dan, H&H flatheads are the best of people & machine shop no better person than Mike, I agree with Scott De Shields and others like Uncle Max you can add me to bunch also. Harold central coast Ca.

[B-O-B]

Explain to me why H&H should stand behind a 2nd party sale. Must be on a differant planet. Go after the guy you bought it from not someone that did the work 5 years ago. I must be missing something here.
TIME OUT

[joe plumber]

Sorry, Mr Schwartz,I don't beileve you got a case against H&H .In fact they could have a case against you .JMHO.

[Ronnie]

Sounds like

[toddle321]

We have 3 of their flatheads and one model A touring motor, great family to deal with and they stand behind their work. Mike is always a phone call away if I'm having a problem, couldn't ask for more.

Todd Samson

[Ford Flathead]

Thanks for all the support. And as always just give me a call if there is a problem and I will try to take care of it.
Thanks
Mike Herman
H&H Flatheads

[Fairlane500]

H&H are a great company and Mike Herman a professional to deal with. I took a leap of faith with H&H half way around the world, they delivered and I wouldnt hesitate doing business with Mike or H&H again, he is true to his word and stands buy his workmanship and builds one helluva flathead.

[pauldeborr]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Sounds like

whine.jpg

This is awesome! Thanks for that, we are here to help people not hurt people.

[Strick]

what were you looking for in airing your negativity here? so I bought a new Ford 5 years ago, the warranty expired at 3 years/36 months and you just bought it from the guy I sold it to. the alternator goes out and you want to hold Ford Motor Company responsible?????

[Frank Miller]

I had a standard block I was sure would clean up a .020. I wanted the pistons when I brought it to the machinist so against Mike's advice I ordered them. Well It did not clean up at .020 and I had to humbly call back to get bigger ones. He sent me the new ones and I returned the old ones. I asked what I owed him for shipping and he said I was all set. I can't testify for all his customers and every business is going to have a few not satisfied but Mike took care of MY mistake.

[Hoop]

MAYBE .... some of us are making some mistakes in responding to posts like this one.

"dschwartz" posted what he believed to be an honest warning about what he thought was unfair treatment by H&H. Notice he did not ask for the forum's opinion ... but, naturally you can bet he was going to get it.

MAYBE ... the best thing to do is discuss whether or not he has a valid complaint against H&H. Suggesting that he is a whiner or that he's made mistakes in grammar does not help settle the main issue.

Some folks are quick to attack the person rather than the person's ideas ... there's a huge difference in trying to overall discredit someone and trying to debate a specific issue. "dschwartz" is a member of the Ford Barn. He may or may not be wrong, but deserves respect in any case.

Further, it does not really matter how many engines H&H has built or how fairly Mike Herman has treated his other customers. The issue is whether or not "dschwartz" has a valid complaint against H&H with HIS engine. I bet Mike will agree.

MAYBE ... no matter how much you disagree with "dschwartz", it's best he post his concerns here. I think he's found that the best solution is to discuss it directly with Mike Herman ... he learned that here. I also hope he will continue posting on the Ford Barn.

[Mike V. Florida]

I know several people that work on old cars and since none of them actually do engines they send the customer to the rebuilders directly to avoid the problems of the third party warranty.

[fourtydlx]

I live in so cal,not far from h&h,lots of engines in my area,Haven't heared any bad news. Not fare to mike to spread gossip. Just my opinion for what its worth.

[JWL]

When I install sleeves I leave a step in the bottom of the bore where the new sleeve is pressed down against the shoulder. It becomes impossible for a sleeve to move down regardless of the abuse or mis-use which might occur. I am not aware of the specific details of the subject engine but, unless the sleeves were original Ford replacement sets there should not be any reason for sleeve movement.

[Ford Flathead]

I always step my sleeves in. The over torque pulled the deck up and cracked it and caused the sleeves to move. On the bottom of the cylinder there is no gap or even machine part line showing.

[okiedokie]

I am assuming he bought the motor second hand to save money. I am sure it was very expensive still. That would make me very unhappy also, but I would never go back to the original builder about it. Maybe to the person who sold it to me, although there was probably a reason it was sold. I think that posting the story is fine, education for all. I think that to exclaim that H&H is to blame is just rediculous.

[Mike51Merc]

Dan: Didn't you think the "5 years ago" part was an important detail in this discussion? And where's Jody Martin in this picture? Did you buy it from him last week or 5 years ago?

Mike H: If he didn't contact you first, then why is he claiming you denied a warrantee?

[JM 35 Sedan]

I've followed this post here and on the EFV8C/A website and FWIW here is my take on this....
Mike Herman (H&H Flatheads) you have a very good reputation and I doubt this post will have any negative affect on you or your business.
Mr Schwartz I don't think you made the best decision to post your grievance with H&H on a public forum, BUT I certainly can feel your pain and frustration over what has happened to your engine.

I guess a good ending to this story might be that Mike Herman does offer to help Mr Schwartz in some way to get his engine problems straightened out. Even though this would not be expected, it would definitely be a good faith gesture on behalf of H&H.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I've followed this post here and on the EFV8C/A website and FWIW here is my take on this....
Mike Herman (H&H Flatheads) you have a very good reputation and I doubt this post will have any negative affect on you or your business.
Mr Schwartz I don't think you made the best decision to post your grievance with H&H on a public forum, BUT I certainly can feel your pain and frustration over what has happened to your engine.

I guess a good ending to this story might be that Mike Herman does offer to help Mr Schwartz in some way to get his engine problems straightened out. Even though this would not be expected, it would definitely be a good faith gesture on behalf of H&H.

DITTO !!!!!! SHOULD BE THE END.......

[Capn John]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I've followed this post here and on the EFV8C/A website and FWIW here is my take on this....
Mike Herman (H&H Flatheads) you have a very good reputation and I doubt this post will have any negative affect on you or your business.
Mr Schwartz I don't think you made the best decision to post your grievance with H&H on a public forum, BUT I certainly can feel your pain and frustration over what has happened to your engine.

I guess a good ending to this story might be that Mike Herman does offer to help Mr Schwartz in some way to get his engine problems straightened out. Even though this would not be expected, it would definitely be a good faith gesture on behalf of H&H.

WHY??? It's 5 years and a third party! Let him go back to Jody Martin!

[uncle buck]

After all of the public posting and hearing the feeling of grief of the orig poster, I don't think anything Mike could offer at this time will satisfy him enough to actually become a customer of H & H 'S , so if I were Mike , I wouldn't bother.

[Bassman/NZ]

If the damage was caused by over torquing, which seems to be the case, there is no obligation by H&H of any kind to repair this mess.

[4dFord/SC]

IMHO, if my only knowledge of H&H Flatheads came from this thread, and I had a flathead that needing rebuilding, I wouldn't hesitate to send it to them. JMTCW.

[moefuzz]

Originally Posted by Ford Flathead

I am not in the position to hand out money 5 years later based on your word you assembled the engine correctly and never over heated the engine.

.


Nuff said.



.

[Tim Ayers]

Man, seems like a nice enough offer. I agree with Mike that this should have been handled off the "net".

Just because it is an open forum and folks can post whatever they darn well please doen't mean they should.

I think we can all learn a lesson from Sen. Anthony Weiner and Brett Farve. Just because technology lets you take and send pictures of your junk, doesn't mean you should or it is a good idea. As we know, it only leads you down a road to trouble.

Same goes with blasting a guy's business over the net. It just isn't the first step or the right thing to do if you never contacted them first.

[dschwartz]

Thank you Ford barn for letting me post my problem on the forum and thank you for taking time to respond to my problem.
I learned a very expensive, and very frustrating experience when I purchased the 59AB block on Fordbarn.com.
I completely trusted the machine work that had been done on the block that resulted in total disaster. I am going forward, end of story.

[Fe26]

I might have hoped you learned a bit more than just the engineering side of the story.
Your call on H&H was ignorant and uncalled for. One that in a more reasonable person should have resulted in your acknowledgement that your outburst was wrong.

I see you have learned nothing from this forum and this discussion.

To blame others for your mistake is the height of churlishness, to then seek to appear somewhat reasonable but at the same time still comment in an underhanded way about the quality of the engineering is plumbing depths of snide rudeness.

You won't move on because that quality is not in you. You will always badmouth others for your mistakes, because that's what snide rude people do.

[296 V8]

Originally Posted by dschwartz

Beware of H&H Flatheads.
I Dan Schwartz bought from Jody Martin a 59AB block that was repaired and machine by H&H Flatheads of La Crescenta, Ca.

The motor has been used for about two thousands miles with the results of:

• Eight sleeves that were installed and bored and honed were done incorrect which has resulted in heavy blow by and excessive oil use. The sleeves have moved down in the block two thousands of an inch. The metal in sleeve no 2 cylinder has failed with small patched of voids in the cylinder walls. Water is leaking into cylinders 1 and 2.

• The sealer paint that was used was done wrong which resulted in the paint flaking and got into the oil passages.

H&H will not stand behind there work and refuses to compensate me for my loses.

Is there documentation H&H even did the block or was this just a claim of the seller “Jody”

[dschwartz]

Yes I have the Repair Order from H&H Flatheads

[felix37]

Unless dschwartz is a professional engine builder and could PROVE that he made no mistakes in the build of his engine,I believe Mike at H&H is owed an apology!

[OldDad]

H&H took a pair of trash-ready Evans heads I brought in and resurrected them for a price that was unfairly low. I had to give them a bit more and many thanks. Took a little longer than anticipated, and I'm willing to wait for good work. My 2/100ths!

[Lawrie]

I get stuff from H&H for my flatheads.
I got a blower kit ,stroker crank and rods etc for the blown eng in our rail a few years back, That thing has done the job first class.
Lawrie

[52merc]

so you brought the engine off ford barn???? not h&h,,v did you get reciepts for work done with h&h headings?? i think your barking up the wrong tree

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by dschwartz

Thank you Ford barn for letting me post my problem on the forum and thank you for taking time to respond to my problem.
I learned a very expensive, and very frustrating experience when I purchased the 59AB block on Fordbarn.com.
I completely trusted the machine work that had been done on the block that resulted in total disaster. I am going forward, end of story.

Well, I think what you should have said is that you completely trusted Jody and what he was selling and not the machine work or the machinist.

I've been at this a long a time and I can't tell you how many "rebuilt" or completely machined blocks, short blocks, engines I've looked at. Unless I've did the work myself, they are all used flatheads not worth much until they are completely checked out.

Just becasue Jody has a receipt, doesn't mean all sorts of bad stuff wasn't done to that block over the course of those five years it sat around.

Your beef is with Jody or someone else who fooled with the block either before you got it or after you got it.

Jeez, this thread has gone from bad to worse.

[gerrald meacham]

what does jody have to say , he looks like the missing link , lets here from jody.JODY ARE YOU LISTNING??????

[Don W/Norfolk]

Why don't we just let this thread die a long overdue and merciful death. Surely we all have something better to do than rehash the rehash and speculate on the speculated. dw

[gerrald meacham]

You are right

[felix37]

The funny thing about this thread is,dshwartz tried to make H&H Flatheads look bad and it back fired! The majority of this thread has complemented H&H on their great work and business ethics. You can't buy that kind of advertising!

[John Kennedy]

I've never dealt with H&H, but was impressed at a show we were all at. I look forward to two things:
Having the money to get my 59A going
Handing said money to Mike to help accomplish this.

[Tinker]

I bought some heads from H&H. Ordered a set online, called them to talk about shipping and they advised me to buy another set that was better for my application. They were right.

[max sr]

My name is Max Herman Sr. from H & H, and the father of Mike ( H & H Flatheads) and Max III ( H & H Antique-4 Bangers ). I have been building engines for over 40 years and was tought and mentor by Joe Gemsa, Kong Jackson & Wes Copper from the late 60's.

We have a shop that is a specialty shop for Ford's that has equipment that no other shop employs and is strictly for what we do.

I generally do not reply to this type of post yet prefer to observe and give info or suggetions that may be helpful or informative, BUT after watching all the prior posts, all of which are favorable, I feel compelled to address the root of this issue and conduct of Schwartz as it pertians to our shop and specifically my Mike.

We operate our shop as a family buisness and have family values and history attached to every engine or part we build or manufacture including our SCoT Blowers, Navarro Cylinder head and manifols, our Bonnevillle recording setting 4 bangers, 471 Blower Drive assemblies as well as all the R & D to supply the Ford hobbiest with the best products that can be produced.

Our engines are all built as if they were our own and our customer needs at all times are at the top of the list, and this includes multiple Q & A daily on the phone despite it being a customer or a mere inquiry for help, opinion or suggestions.

We have always adhered to this policy and always worked with our customers as to any issues that may come up. There is not finger pointing, simply analysis, education and resolution to satisfy our customers. And this is our governing principles of which my sons and I
apply to every day.

I find Schwartz comments DECEPTIVE, LESS THAN FORTHCOMING,
INUENDO RIDDEN WITH MALICE AND MALICIUOS BASES FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF EXTRACTING MONETARY RENUMERATION.

It has taken me a few days and a few reads to digest the Schwartz comments etc and I will list the facts as supported by Scharwtz's comments and his slippery slope of lack of answering direct questions either by failure to reply or alluding to repetative dribble and self empithy.

The facts as I know them:

5-2006--59A flathead block machined for Martin:
Hotank, Mag,Crack Repair, 8 Sleeves, 16 Valve Seats ( 1.5 &
1.6 ) Resurface Block & PRESSURE TEST & CERAMICALLY
PRESSURE SEAL BLOCK w/ IRONTITE .

6-17-2011--letter sent to H & H -actually received approx 6-20-2011

THIS IS THE 1ST AND ONLY COMMUNICATION WITH SCHWARTZ
ABOUT THIS ENGINE

The letter states " the motor has been used for ABOUT 2000
MILES"..."Sleeves have moved .002"..."water is leaking into
cylinders 1 & 2."

" I want to be compensated for my loses that has resulted in
finding an other block and having that block machined"

"I will be coming to Anahiem June 25 for a car show I could
bring you the block."

" IF I DO NOT HEAR FROM YOU BY JUNE 25 I AM GOING PUBLIC"

5-24-2010 to 7-1-2011

Schwartz has started 15 threads and 32 posts a number of which
are " what is it worth " type questions.

The following posts are from Schwartz and by his own posting show
the issues he had and the deceptive nature of his reeplys and posts.

5-26-2010 ( 1 year & 2months ago )
"problem 59ab modified flathead...three 97,...Offenhauser heads...Malory ignition...I have about 1000 miles on motor and it has a little blow by...cast iron rings...I was getting water in cylinders. I ...put in alumaseal and that stopped the water problem in the left bank...I still have water in number 1 and 3 cylinders... .

As Schwartz has stated on 5-2011 "1000 miles..." "water in number 1 and 3..." and on 6-2011 "2000 miles..." "water ...cylinders 1 and 2"

Schwartz never purchased any parts for this engine from H & H nor has he ever identified who or where the engine was assembled. Quite odd he never brings Martin into the alleged warranty issue nor did he ever cleary state that he bought the engine from Martin via the Ford Barn.

His comments are sinister and self serving to simply attempt to produce a Buisness Interuption via Internet Blackmail and with a younger person in the industry it becomes real easy to shake them down via media comments being either defamitory or liabelous and predatory.

The reason I spoke of CERAMICALLY PRESSURE SEALED IRONTITE is basically we are the only shop that I know of that has made all the pressure plates for v/8 60's to v/12 Linclons that allow us to Ceramically seal the cooling system of the engines at 180 degrees and 20 lbs pressure that well exceed the radiater systems of these engines with a final test of 60 lbs.

That being said, there exists multiple unsolved mystery questions of which are not addressed by Schwartz as to the assembly procedures etc. other than putting Alumaseal in a apparent blown head gasket engine.

It does not take a professional to assemble an engine BUT you must approach it in a professional manner & the 1st step is knowing your limitations and seeking professional advice ( and I don't mean from the 3 most illusive people Bro, Homey or MY Buddy ) from people in the industry and taking responsibility for your own actions or lack of.

This is why we pride ourselves in talking to all that call regardless of there status, customer or not, as well as the multiple shop mini tours we give to any one that comes by at any time. Yes it is time consuming but it is also a ton of fun to give up some insight or knowledge to guys with an interest.

Fe26 ( Sydney Australia ) I agree 100% with you and your post to the back door woah is me post by Schwartz.

I fully hope this puts and end to the self serving malicious comments of Schwartz and his in vien attempt to disparage & shake down H & H.

I appreciate the reponses and support and your patience with my long post.

And with out hesitation our doors are always open and if we can help give us a call.

I support and commend my boys Max III & MIke on their work ethic and continuing development of engines and products.

Thanks for the forum Max Sr.

[V8COOPMAN]

Well put, Max! DD

[1931 flamingo]

Enlighten me please. How could the sleeves moving .002 cause all these problems??? How do sleeves "move"??? >002 is NOT very much.
Thank you, Paul in CT

[flatheadernie]

Fe26, Well said mate, wish I had you on my side last divorce. LOL, Max Sr well I worked in a family buisness ( dad, mom, myself, 3 sons), for 33 yrs and I feel your pain and understand your pride. God Bless ernie n tx.

[flatheadernie]

Ryan, Thank you for letting this thread play out tho at some times it seemed it might go off topic, I think it has served the indviduals and industry fairly, again Ryan thank you, ernie n tx ( Chicken Coop) 46.

[Tim Ayers]

Max Sr., Well put and I commend you for taking the time to digest what was being said and putting up a well thought out and professional response.

As it turns out, there was certainly more to this story than was told.

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Max Sr., Well put and I commend you for taking the time to digest what was being said and putting up a well thought out and professional response.

As it turns out, there was certainly more to this story than was told.

There almost always is Tim.

[Sid the Maineiac]

Hey,do you want some cheese with that "whine" ?

[Deuce Man]

My buddy sent a flathead to h&h all the way from florida.Said it was the best move he ever made. Motor was perfect, he drove the wheels off that car, never skipped a beat. I was jealous!