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Old 06-14-2011, 12:25 AM   #1
John Kennedy
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Default The Flathead oil modification thread...

Hey all. After extensively reading Merc Cruiser's thread and gaining knowledge and confusion, I thought I'd start this thread.

Tonight I modified my 1948 59a flathead. I followed the directions found here .. www.flatheadv8.org/filter.htm

Went well, took my time and am happy so far.

I have a couple questions however....

First off, I had no grub screw so I suppose I should add one. Did Ford thread the passageway for me? I looked, but couldn't tell.

Also, I read that I need to rotate the rear cam bearing 90 degrees. Why is that? I will be running an electric fuel pump, no mechanical pump used. How will that cam bushing get oil?

And at the bottom of the 9/16 vertical passageway, should I do anything where the small passage intersects at 45 degrees near the pump? Enlarge, smooth out, or neither?
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:56 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

No, Ford did not machine threads for the grub screw. Yes, the grub screw is necessary if oil is to be sent into the filter. No, it is not necessary to relocate the cam bearing if the fuelpump pushrod bushing is in place.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

John Kennedy:
As to the rotating the rear cam bearing, since you will not be using the mechanical fuel pump and will be removing the rod, it is my understanding this will keep the oil from coming up the tube for the rod. I am using both the mechanical along with an electric fuel pump as a back up and to cure the "vapor lock" issue that comes into play from time to time. As to the "grub screw" (generic term) you can get them at any ACE hardware in either steel or brass.

Glad the thread was of use to someone....it is always good to hear of failures along with the successes as I always learn from both of them....I have to admit that I never would have guessed it would get the response it did!

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Old 06-14-2011, 10:36 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

[QUOTE=JWL;223546]No, Ford did not machine threads for the grub screw. [/QUOTE

Wouldn't the Canadian blocks have been threaded for grub (set screw) by Ford?
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

They used a slightly different technique to separate the in from the out...a special long fitting went through the outer hole and down into the passage to separate the functions.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:05 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

John:

"Also, I read that I need to rotate the rear cam bearing 90 degrees. Why is that? I will be running an electric fuel pump, no mechanical pump used. How will that cam bushing get oil?


http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...t=38439&page=7

See post #129

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Old 06-14-2011, 11:13 AM   #7
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

That completely makes sense regarding rotating the cam bearing to block off that passage. I still don't know how that rear bushing would get any lube though? I don't want to starve it.
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

The rear bearing does not use the same oil feed tube as the center and front bearing do to get oil. It has a separate passageway in the block from the oil pump. Hope this picture is clear enough....
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Great picture, thanks! I'll go look at mine when I get home.
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

That picture is of a Canadian (probably WWII) factory full flow system...what manual is it from?
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Post #129, as suggested above, is wrong for this application. There WILL NOT be any oil leak as is indicated. Please remember, the engine being discussed is a 59 block. The pushrod bushing COMPLETELY seals at both ends. Rotating the cam bearing is not necessary if the bushing is in place. For electric pumps I always insert a small, tapered, aluminum plug in the bushing which can later be removed if a standard fuelpump is desired. The plug can help in cases where the stock fuelpump stand and breather are used, without all the original baffles, as oil can be cast upward from the camshaft lobe where the fuelpump rod is designed to operate. If the stock baffels and tube are missing the breather can receive an oil fog.

The rear cam bearing receives oil from the rear gear housing which quickly fills with oil from shaft clearance at the upper oilpump bushing and from the clearance at the upper oilpump housing machined O.D. section.
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

here ya go
http://flatheadjack.com/39.html
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:38 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

JWL:

Will the picture work for him or is that wrong too?
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:40 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster View Post
That picture is of a Canadian (probably WWII) factory full flow system...what manual is it from?
Hi Bruce, That is the same picture as presented in the Canadian Military Pattern (CMP) maintenance manual "MN-F1" from WWII Dated June 1943.

This is a very handy manual to have if you can find one.

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Old 06-15-2011, 12:12 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Well HELL. Minor setback. I cleaned out all my metal shavings from the passageway mods, and broke thru the casting at the bottom of the vertical. Right above where the 45degree bend is.

I'm guessing sleeve it? It's drilled to 9/16 dia. Hole goes into clutch area. Where can I find a suitable sleeve? Brass or steel?
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:41 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Here is how i did mine, it is a 8ba style block from a '52. Drilled down from pushrod bushing to the rear main hit the center lucky! drilled the bearing insert, pluged the old oil gallery from oil pump (1/4" rod). remove push rod bushing and plugged the hole with pipe plug. This is a Canadian block so install the grub/716" nf set screw in the cross over, has the two vertical holes . 100% filtered oil works real good 6000 miles no issues. Laurie
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Meric42:

By chance does the manual show the size of the lines to and from the filter? I thought I had read that the canister type filter would not handle a full flow system. Also it is interesting to note that the passage way between the two openings in the block is not blocked off, as is the modern-day full flow system....or is that sleeve in the block for the feed?
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:02 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

External lines are 3/8" ID, the cannister and filter are not the same as the bypass system, and the Ford Canada system uses a sleeve type fitting to block the horizontal passage. How the hell can so many of you read that long thread regarding this topic and forget all of it in such a short time? ..B.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

I agree that there are numerous threads about the modern full flow system that is incorporating 3/8" lines, but I was looking for confirmation that as to what this particular system used in 1943. Is there a diagram and description of the canister and filter used here? As to not remembering the long thread regarding this topic I have read numinous threads addressing the "new full flow system" but do not remember one addressing this specific system. Could you direct me to it, as I would like to print it off for future reference and to insure I do not ask this question again! Thank you in advance for your patience.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

That, and the fact that drilling into a cast iron block is pretty darn scary. As evidenced by the fact that I messed mine up. I can fix mine via sleeving, at least that's the plan.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:37 AM   #21
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

"...manual "MN-F1" from WWII Dated June 1943"
Thanks! I may already own that, and will start hunting if I don't. I was surprised a few years ago to discover that there was a vast range of Canadian civilian and military literature, totally unrelated to Ford USA equivalents, that not only provided very complete repair info but information on oddities like the full flow filters and full flow coolers used during WWII. I've been collecting the stuff like crazy, finding interesting material from the several worlds of Bren carriers and heavy trucks, as well as the WO passenger vehicles that eventually became the Pilot...
In some cases, there are Australian publications apparently unrelated to the Canadian ones, and of course the British were building their own variants of everything...
I think the appearance of a boss for the full flow drilling that appeared on USA WWII 239's and was kept on after the war was likely added because many USA Merc engines flowed directly into Imperial supply lines.
The Canadian PCV system is also of interest...I've managed to collect most of the bits. Flatheads at war...blasted stuff is getting expensive. Someone else must be hunting the stuff too.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:44 AM   #22
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kennedy View Post
That, and the fact that drilling into a cast iron block is pretty darn scary. As evidenced by the fact that I messed mine up. I can fix mine via sleeving, at least that's the plan.
Ok fess up what were you attempting to do ??

R
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:48 AM   #23
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

"By chance does the manual show the size of the lines to and from the filter? I thought I had read that the canister type filter would not handle a full flow system. Also it is interesting to note that the passage way between the two openings in the block is not blocked off, as is the modern-day full flow system....or is that sleeve in the block for the feed?"

From what I know...the cannister filter shown is NOT the partial flow filter, though it looks much the same. Different can, different cartridge. I may have some cataloging with pics in postwar civilain parts book.
Line dimension was approximately toodamnsmall...they used the normal sized ports, 1/4 pipe I think, with appropriate lines for that, and these at least look small enough to scare me...though since the engines were being built for desert warfare, they must have worked fine!
If you scrutinize that picture, you can see how the blocking off was done with a sleeve made as part of the fitting. The engines were drilled with three instead of two oil ports, with that extra available for the conversion. USA engines from WWII on had the boss for the extra hole. (Odd footnote...if you study the pictures in your Ford USA "Repair manual Ford and Mercury V8 engines 1937-48", you will see in one of the photos that the block pictured is a WWII 29A with 3 large non-standard fittings protruding from its bellhousing...presumably an engine headed for life in an artillery tractor or Bren carrier!)
Someone in Canada was mentioned as supplying a repro of the special fitting on the old Fordbarn...does anyone have that info??
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:49 AM   #24
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Also remember that the French made upgrades and such when they got everything from the US and Canada when flatties were "done" in North America. So there is a whole other "treasure trove/iteration/generation/revival/etc" of the flathead by the French (language converters on your PC will make life really easy for you) since they were casting their "hybrid" block version and building complete engines up until 1992.

My point here is that there should e alot more info out there from the French with regard to engine oiling, etc, etc.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:17 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Does ayone have actual photos of this system?
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:28 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
Ok fess up what were you attempting to do ??

R

I was drilling the vertical passage to the prescribed 9/16" when I broke thru. I'm just gonna sleeve it. It's above the 45 degree bend, near where the casting swells up some.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:52 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Bruce:
Thank you and I will say your information is extremely interesting especially:
"Line dimension was approximately toodamnsmall...they used the normal sized ports, 1/4 pipe". Have you ever gotten your hands on any of the original components for this system? I will start looking at all future swap meets, in the unlikelihood that a few may show up.
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Old 06-15-2011, 02:27 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

No...I've got nothing but various incomplete fragments of pictorial coverage. I think the wartime stuff is extremely rare, and the postwar was optional and not a common choice by the customers. I think same general setup was used on Bren carriers, hooked to a cooling coil instead of a filter...flatheads in armored tracked vehicles had HARD lives!
Note in the picture above there is some sort of valve across the lines, presumably a bypass in case a blocked filter produced backpressure above the valves tolerance...this would be functionally equivalent to the little bypass valve in the filter mount on a SBC.
If you try to emulate this, I think a number of early fifties OHV V8's used cannister type full flows.
Surely someone on here remembers the Canadian who reproduced the special fitting...
Maybe you could use the V8 club membership book or website to locate Canadian chapters of the club and possible owners of one of these rigs.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:34 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

This is getting pretty fascinating
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Ronnie:

I note that you are from Canada (by the way so is my wife) any chance you could follow up on this: Surely someone on here remembers the Canadian who reproduced the special fitting...
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Old 06-15-2011, 05:19 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer View Post
Ronnie:

I note that you are from Canada (by the way so is my wife) any chance you could follow up on this: Surely someone on here remembers the Canadian who reproduced the special fitting...
Merc I will dig up his name for you. I have it somewhere.
All it does is allow you to convert to a 95% "so called filter system" without re tapping any holes on an 8ba. On a 59a it requires one hole drilled and tapped for the return line from the filter to the engine.Both engines use the same fitting,not complicated at all,actually very simple. My2¢

R
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:06 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Ran the 9/16" hole specs against copper pipe. Found out 1/2 pipe OD is a little large, even when turned down some. Seems like a 3/8 copper pipe coupler might work. It's OD is a little closer. Home Depot tonight I suppose. I'll take some pics and post progress.
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:54 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

take a look at this!

http://www.flatheadv8.org/filter.htm
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Alternative to the "Grub Screw"; copied this some time ago and don't know if it is still valid.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:40 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

The plug is a clever adaptation. Note that the block shown is Canadian, with extra hole supplied by factory, which is why no drilling was required. Also, this restricts your plumbing (if done with no machining) to what will go through the 1/4" pipe fittings, which scares me...but is what Ford did with success during WWII.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:21 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Can the full flow modification be done successfully on 35-36 blocks? Mine is Australian so therefore a Canadian block.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:05 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Same basic mod would work. Prewar blocks will need drilling/plugging regardless of national origin or religious persuasion.
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Old 06-17-2011, 12:08 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Here's where I drilled through the lower vertical oil passage, and how I fixed it.
Passage was enlarged to 9/16 per mod specs. I found that 3/8" copper pipe sweat couplers are a snug fit, so I tapped a pair in there. The blue you see is Loctite.
I also reached in there and flaired out the edge a bit to insure they won't crawl up any.

After block is cleaned out, area will get a nice coat of J-B Weld. Should be good then.
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Old 06-17-2011, 12:09 AM   #39
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

The 3/8" couplers are 3/8" I.D. and 9/16" O.D.
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:03 AM   #40
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Any guesses as to what the C.M.P stands for?
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:15 AM   #41
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

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Any guesses as to what the C.M.P stands for?
Canadian Military Pattern vehicles.

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Old 06-17-2011, 12:14 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Flathead oil modification thread...

Now I am getting closer....
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