Cleaning the radiator

[daveymc29]

Filled it with three gallons of distilled white vinegar. Plan to drive it for about three weeks, drain, rinse with tap water then refill with distilled water and a cup of baking soda for week or so, then drain, rinse and refill with 550-50 mix of Anti Freese and distilled water. Any comment, best wishes or condemnations?
Then drive it to the Spring Opener at Clearlake, CA.
Dave Mc Arthur

[JKY]

Three weeks for a mild acid attacking the radiator lead soldered seams seem like a lot of time to me. I'd hate to weaken the solder.

[Herb Concord Ca]

Dave we'll be going to the Spring Opener as well.

[oldspert]

Originally Posted by JKY

Three weeks for a mild acid attacking the radiator lead soldered seams seem like a lot of time to me. I'd hate to weaken the solder.

I do not recall from college chemistry class where light acidic solution would attack lead. It might clean the surface of the lead, but not penetrate the subsurface.

[Tom Grz]

I'm rebuilding a '30 pickup that hasn't run in many years. I had to remove the top tank to make some repairs and I'm glad I did because I found 3 or 4 tubes completely blocked with a greasy sludge (I assume from years of over-greasing the water pump). I started with brake cleaner and an electricians fish tape to break thru the clogs, followed by one of those metal hanging file folder things and more cleaner to open it up more. Soaked it over night in simple green and finished off with a 1/8" straw cleaning brush. Point is...I don't know how effective vinegar is on those greasy clogs, if you happen to have any.

[Bob Bidonde]

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Using distilled water is a waste of money in my opinion. Tap water is good. Better yet is a 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and tap water.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Tap water is good.

Methinks it depends on the quality of one's local tap water. Soft, hard or very hard.

[noboD]

I think your process will work. I did a similar cleaning on a tractor several years ago. Left the vinegar in for about 3 weeks, cut grass, worked it as usual. Flushed the crap out and bingo, worked like a charm, no leaks. You will be surprised of what comes out.

[Bruce of MN]

This came out of my cooling system after running vinegar for a few days.

[ronn]

sounds like a plan. 3 weeks should be fine if you are bringing it up to temp many times.


I leave vinegar in mine for 6 weeks. start it up about 2x a week for 20 minutes and always gets a good cleaning. Have never had a problem with a leak from this process. Have done at least 10 cars this way.

[burner31]

Be very careful when draining and flushing, the vinegar and the gunk that comes out can really do a job on any painted surfaces and bare metal areas.

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Using distilled water is a waste of money in my opinion. Tap water is good. Better yet is a 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and tap water.

Like a gallon of distilled water is so expensive, ~$1.25 at the market. I would never put our tap water in a radiator (or battery). Way too hard.

[BillCNC]

One should visually inspect the integrity of old radiators (93+ years) when using acids. You might have a odd looking lawn sprinkle if you not careful.

I'd go 72 hours at a time neutralizing the vinegar with baking soda each time until she's clean.

Have you used 1/4 cup of Cascade liquid dishwasher soap before the vinegar yet?

Regards
Bill

[ronn]

Bill- vinegar is only 4% acid. the rest is water. no need to neutralize every 72 hours. you want it to clean............


never had a lawn sprinker from vinegar. Too much fear of the unknown.

[MilwaukeeMike]

When I did this I bought a few cases of distilled water. Fill, run, drain, repeat. At some point the drained water looks fairly clean. Finish by putting in a good coolant mix. It leached a lot of gunk out of the entire cooling system. Just do not leave it in there for long.

[Synchro909]

My experience says that there will be some grease in the system before you start your cleaning. I know a guy who tried to remove the grease by adding a fist full of laundry powder to the radiator. Unsurprisingly, it foamed into a thick, creamy substance quite quickly and the temperature rose. Bubbles don't cool an engine. As a result of his experience, I thought about that for a while trying to find a detergent that will cut grease, yet NOT foam. I settled on couple of dish washer tablets. I put them in and drove about 100 miles and by the time I got back home, the car was still running at the same temperature it was when I set out or a little cooler and the top tank looked a lot cleaner through the filler cap. The grease must be gone before vinegar is added or the vinegar will not get at the rust. I drained the system and flushed it a couple of times and only then, did I add the vinegar. I left that in there for a couple of months, running the engine every couple of days if I wasn't driving the car anyway to keep it circulating. I may have left it there longer than the optimal time because when I drained it, the water was VERY rusty coloured. I flushed it and the next lot of water was not much clearer. That convinced me that the job was not finished so I added vinegar again and repeated the process. I did that (I think) 3 or 4 times till I saw any real improvement.
Would I use that process again? Probably not but it did work.
My Brother in Law used this process and raves about it. The kit comes with enough chemical to do 2 Model A systems so if you have a friend with a similar problem, you might share a kit. There is a warning with that - FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS. I have no interest in this company and note the prices are in Australian dollars, not $US. Every $US100 will but you about $A150.
https://liquidintelligence.com.au/pr...c-rust-remover

[daveymc29]

This will be my second round with the vinegar. I did us dish washer soap before I started the last time. Didn't see signs of grease in the water this time. Last time it was a real mess until I got the third rinse, using tap water. Filled it with distilled water, about $1.00 Gal. at the grocery. Vinegar has, however, jumper from perhaps $1.25 to about $7.00 and hard to find in my town. Better than $500.00 at the radiator shops, and some are above that a bit now days. I wasn't overheating much, didn't notice anything but a little steam and I believe that was from not advancing the spark enough. Just a precaution because of some hills to climb on the Spring opener. ( Herb, I'll call you.) I did find a problem with my points, the nut and washer has come off where all the wires meet the point arm, would die for no reason and always fired right back up. Usually after a turn. Don't see all that well and couldn't find my flashlight, so that one escaped me for several trips to coffee in the rain and cold. Pulled the distributor and imediately went for my junk bin for a nut and washer, problem solved.

[ronn]

synch- we use Dawn here. an anti colloidal detergent that we have discussed here in the past. does a heck of a job and no major foaming.


it was actually invented to degrease engines.

[Diastole]

How do you measure engine temperature?
First of all, I want to say a big thank you to all of the knowledgeable experts that have commented on this forum. There is tremendous knowledge amongst you, gentlemen, and I feel this “Thank You” is echoed by all of the other newbies on the site. Please continue to pass this knowledge down to us new to Model A’e’s as we enter our retirement years.

I purchased my first one six months ago. I have an early 1930 coupe, oval speedometer. The engine starts immediately and runs great with no knocking. There is a baffle installed in this original radiator.

I drove it for the first time last week and after about 20 minutes with some mild hills, the radiator was boiling over. I could hear steam in the engine block. The radiator was not overfilled, but the water was not as clean as it should be.

I have now cleaned the radiator and preparing for a test drive. My question is, what the best way to test for radiator function?
- I have a laser thermometer and can measure the temperature of the engine block in various locations. Is there an accepted standard of temperatures for the outside of the engine block in various locations?
- I have a digital thermometer from my wife’s kitchen where I can measure the water temperature in the top of the radiator.
- I have placed a rubber ball in the bottom of the radiator. Filled the radiator. The radiator drains to empty in 3.6 seconds which is less than the four seconds recommended by the Ford Barn.

The procedure for cleaning the radiator, y’all recommended, is what I followed pretty closely. This came from the Ford Barn experts, this thread, and others.

1. Drained all of the old water
2. Built a backflushing attachment with some new radiator hoses as recommended by Tom Endy.
3. Back flushed radiator, and engine until the water was clear and free particles. As described, I kept the pressure during engine backflush less than 15 psi.
4. Instilled a dilute soapy water solution with Dawn Dish soap. Ran the car for 30 minutes and let it soak for 24 hours.
5. Drained dirty soap solution.
6. Backflushed the engine and the radiator.
7. Instilled an oxalic acid solution in a three parts water to one part oxalic acid ratio.
8. Ran the car for 15 minutes until the engine was over 200° and the radiator fluid was greater than 170°.
9. Let the engine cool down to less than 100°. Approximately 45 minutes.
10. Drained dark green acid solution
11. Neutralized acid solution with one box of sodium bicarbonate (Arm and Hammer) in 3 gallons of water and circulated this with the engine running for five minutes
12. Let engine cool to less than 100°F
13. Back flushed radiator, and engine until clear
14. Instilled a weak green phosphoric acid solution with the same three to one ratio to give a 30% acid solution.
15. Ran engine until head temperature was 200° and radiator fluid was greater than 175°
16. Allowed the solution to sit until the engine cooled to less than 100°F. This took approximately 45 minutes.
17. Drained filthy, cloudy acid solution
18. Neutralized acid solution with one box of sodium bicarbonate (Arm and Hammer) in 3 gallons of water and circulated this with the engine running for five minutes
19. Let engine cool
20. Back flushed radiator, and engine until clear water, and free of particles.
21. Filled radiator and engine with clean water.


I do not want to give up on this radiator. But, the mentor in my Model A Club informs me that a bad radiator is a good engine killer. So, in the test drive today what do I look for? The air temperature will be 80°. There are some mild hills in my neighborhood. Idling the car will get the temperature of the radiator fluid quickly to 175° with the engine block around 200°.

Please, share some test, driving advice or any other suggestions for testing radiator function.

Thanks in advance

[katy]

Diastole, does your A have a thermostat? Usually mounted in the upper radiator hose, sometimes in an aftermarket "thermostat housing, water outlet" installed on top of the head instead of the original water outlet. If you have a thermostat it's possibly failed.

[Diastole]

Here are the pictures, as requested.

[Diastole]

Katy, there is no Thermostat. Fairly stock, all parts of car.
I have been messaged and included pics so ya'll could help.

[Keith True]

Solutions and flushings are not going to open up blocked tubes.A tube that is blocked up 3 inches from the opening is not going to let solutions down there to open it up.The juice will just find an easier route to the bottom.The old 4 second rule came about when people were happy to drive their A's around at 40 MPH all the time.The radiator guy I used to use showed me that a radiator with 50% of it's tubes blocked will drain in 4 seconds.Somebody published that story over 60 years ago,and because it was in a magazine,it had to be true.Nothing but mechanical poking will unblock the tubes.I have worked on old equipment,and old cars all my working life,and never found any magic uullet that properly cleans a radiator.Over the years I've spent hundreds of hours trying to fix something that I could have fixed if I just took the top off the radiator and run a transmission dipstick down the tubes in the first place.

[Diastole]

Keith True,
Great tips and likely my problem with this original 97 year old radiator. I have always wondered what they rod radiators with. Cool.
How do I know if I have a problem (obviously, if radiator boils over after a leisurely drive, eureka, the radiator is bad)?

But, what if I am on the bubble with say only a couple of tubes bad/clogged or a bunch of fins not contacting the tubes or a separate problem entirely like in the engine?

As I am test driving, what do I look for other than boiling over?
Is there a block temperature, engine head temperature, or radiator water temperature that is too high?

I appreciate the help

[Brentwood Bob]

On your test drive the car will seek its coolant level, try just below the baffle. You are looking for keeping the engine from overheating. Especially under load, think hills.
I traded a Mitchell overdrive for my huckster. One of its problems was overheating. The PO must have mistreated the rebuilt motor, but neglected to mention same to me. Never add water to an overheated block until it cools down!!!!
While discovering a cracked block I did a lot of the same as you have. One thing I did was find a radiator shop in Stockton(20 minutes East) to rod out my radiator. Best money I spent. They are gone now. Find a shop in your neighborhood, and use them, IMHO. Best money you can spend short of a new brass works, or bergs radiator.
There is also a dead spot in the back of the block that likes to block circulation. Only reached when the head is off. There is a modification mentioned in the service bulletins to improve circulation, but I used a drill, probes, vacuum, and other Rube Goldberg techniques to pick at the scale deposits. Then I found the crack in the cylinder wall of number 3. Another motor fixed that.
Bottom line - Start with a good radiator.

[Big hammer]

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Retarded timing and lean mixture can cause your engine to run hot, reading your spark plugs can help determine if your mixture is right and if your adjusting the timing properly. Search google for reading spark plugs, sorry too much typing to post here.

[nkaminar]

The photo that Bruce posted, post #9, looks like someone left a sponge in the radiator. Amazing.

[Gene F]

Al these comments are good. I like the dishwasher soap thing, followed by vinegar, but I thing 72 to 48 hours is good. Especially if you take the car for a spin or two. Remember, any antifreeze that is glycol based will foam if not under pressure. I don't know how far north Danville, CA is. Besides clear water changed another time or two over the first month won't hurt any thing.

[updraught]

A bit of a discussion about using Evapo-rust.

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/333382...-rust-remover/

[katy]

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

Never add water to an overheated block until it cools down!!!!

Yes, if the engine is stopped, if it's still running water can be added slowly. Old school trick, (been there, done that).

[Ed in Maine]

I cleaned a radiator by removing the top tank with a propane torch, rodded out with a brass brazing rod with a tip shaped like an "L" that would just fit into the radiator tube. I plugged the bottom connection and filled the radiator with water to just below the top tank. I also used "Gunk" sprayed down into each tube to loosen things. I was amazed by the quantity of solid grease and rust that I pushed out of each tube. There is no way you are going to flush out this stuff. I pushed out all the junk into the bottom tank and hosed it out of the bottom connection. Be gentle when pushing the rod down into the tube, use plenty of Gunk to keep things moving. After I was finished, the radiator was too cold, operating temperature was 155F. Good luck with it, it is not a hard job. Ed

[Gene F]

Some of these techniques in these comments are likely good maintenance every once in a while. How often depends on a few factors. One thing for sure, water pump grease sounds like a major culprit. Glad I have a water pump that has a sealed bearing that I don't add grease to the water side.

I might add, I use water pump lubricant to my water each season, which also keeps the rust down.

[Diastole]

Please help decode data and advise me how to proceed with this radiator!

I performed a run test today after thoroughly cleaning radiator earlier in the week, see my posts #19 and #21 for the steps I took. The BoreScope showed the top and bottom tanks to be clean and the top and bottom of the core to be clean. The Inlet and Outlet of the engine also cleaned up nicely. I am pretty happy with the result of the acids.

I am worried Keith True #23 and Ed in Maine #31 may be correct. Here is the data.

I ran the engine I think I have too high temperatures. But, I need help interpreting the data. And, answering the question of whether I should rod the core or abandon this 97 year old radiator.

The Test:
0-10 mins parked -- idle RPM -- Water temp 150°F
10-20 mins parked -- idle RPM -- Water temp 179°F
20-30 mins parked -- 1,000 RPM -- Water temp 158°F (added box fan in front of grill)
30-40 mins parked -- 1,000 RPM -- Water temp 163°F (added box fan in front of grill)
40-50 mins driving -- 500-1000 RPM -- Water temp 185°F gentle hills in neighborhood
50-60 mins driving -- 500-1000 RPM -- Water temp 192°F gentle hills in neighborhood

See attached picture. The infrared laser thermometer showed the engine getting pretty hot, particularly on the cylinders below the water jacket. Is that normal?

Also, the head above cylinder #1 and #4 got pretty hot, 191°F and 185°F. Plus the water temp topped 192°F.

This is a significant improvement over the radiator last week, that boiled over after 15 mins of driving. So, I helped if some. But, is this sufficient cooling?

The difference in temperature from the inlet of the radiator to the outlet ranged between 13°F and 30°F. I would expect a radiator to lower the temp more than 30°F. Is my concern correct?

When I passed the laser over the radiator fins, there were columns of hotter and colder, as if some of the tubes were clogged or the fins had become dislodge from the tubes (even though I see no damage or loose fins).

Attached is the diagram I used to collect temperatures.

What do all you experts think? Does this radiator adequately lower the temp of the water and protect the engine? It was only 75°F outside today. I was the only passenger in the car. I drove her gently, too.

Is radiator inadequate?
Limp it along and retest in the summer when it is hotter?
Evaporust for several days (I have done one soap and two acid flushes already)?
Recore, rod, or replace?

I plan to call Brassworks or Steve at Berts tomorrow and ask what temperature drop should I expert as water pass thru a radiator.

Thanks in advance!

[nkaminar]

A new radiator is a wonderful thing. If not that, then a rebuilt one is nice. You may have to go to Charlotte to find a radiator shop. I doubt there is one in the Smokys.

[Diastole]

nkaminar,
Thanks and I agree. And, I appreciate your help.
But, do those temperature measurements and only a 30 degree (max) drop in water temp as is passes thru a radiator mean my radiator is in need of being rebuilt or replaced?

And, you are right, closest Radiator Shop is Charlotte, NC or up on the Cumberland Plateau in Central Tenn. I like the idea of a modern car's tranny dipstick as the rod, but my soldering skills suck.

[Big hammer]

I chased my tail around 3 years ago like your doing, 30* drop outlet to inlet temps, used water + water wetter and still high temperatures after an hour or more of driving, never had a boil over. I was shamed into buying a new radiator, when I called Gerry Berg about a new radiator he stated that most people complain that his radiators cool too well ! They do and I ended up adding a thermostat to get the temperature up. Bergs radiator are not in business now, I would call Berts and have your radiator recored, they can make your radiator cool too well. I have my old radiator and one that I bought at a parts swap meet, they could be used as a core if needed !

[Gene F]

"Is radiator inadequate?" When I bought my car it had one of those el-cheapo Sear Robuck radiators in it. Come the heat of summer it would boil over. Cleaning one of those, or recoring it (as it is too small already) is a waste of time. It may be time to call Snyders and get the best one they sell. You might be money, and agrivation ahead int he long-run.

[JOES31]

The water in So Cal has way too many minerals mainly calcium. I guarantee if you did that here, your tubes would have white deposits at the bottom of the top tank and into the
tubes. Lesson learned 40 years ago!

[nkaminar]

Diastole, You are running too hot. The coolant flow is likely too slow. This would allow the coolant to cool in the radiator but the engine would still run too hot. I am guessing but this seems the most logical conclusion. I would take your radiator to a good radiator shop and have them work on it. They may say that it is time for a new one.

One thing that happens to old radiators is that the fins work loose from the tubes so that there is not good heat transfer. This is another possible problem with your radiator. Ask the radiator shop to look at that.

[old31]

Originally Posted by Keith True

Solutions and flushings are not going to open up blocked tubes.A tube that is blocked up 3 inches from the opening is not going to let solutions down there to open it up.The juice will just find an easier route to the bottom.The old 4 second rule came about when people were happy to drive their A's around at 40 MPH all the time.The radiator guy I used to use showed me that a radiator with 50% of it's tubes blocked will drain in 4 seconds.Somebody published that story over 60 years ago,and because it was in a magazine,it had to be true.Nothing but mechanical poking will unblock the tubes.I have worked on old equipment,and old cars all my working life,and never found any magic uullet that properly cleans a radiator.Over the years I've spent hundreds of hours trying to fix something that I could have fixed if I just took the top off the radiator and run a transmission dipstick down the tubes in the first place.

What, what! Keith, are you saying that if its in print that there is a chance that it could possibly be untrue. Amazing.

[Fullraceflathead]

Here's a tip. It's best to only paint the top and bottom tanks on your radiator. It's best to leave the fins and core unpainted. Since our radiators are exposed in the front and are cosmetic to our vehicles looks it's best to put a very very light coat on the exposed front fins and core if you must paint them. It's best to keep it unpainted because the paint actually helps insulate the heat transfer and cooling process from the air flowing through the radiator.