1936 oil pump help

[actioncat]

I am very new to this. I work on my own cars, but my father has a 1936 Ford Panel Van. He had one guy that was suppose to be restoring it. He did lousy work.
Another gentleman, who I was told is trustworthy, said there is no oil pressure and it is probably the pin that sheared off in the oil pump. I think he was referring to part #61 on the vanpelt web site. I have the oil pan off and the pump end with the two pump gears, but when I turn the crankshaft, the gears spin. That tells me that the pin is okay. Am I barking up the wrong tree or is this one of those gotta know a flathead?

By the way, your site was helpful in getting the oil pan off. It would have been more helpful if someone came and helped me!

[JSeery]

How was it determined that there was no oil pressure? Tested with a gauge?

[actioncat]

He changed the oil and hooked up the pressure gauge. By the empty oil bottles, I think he used 3 quarts of Valvoline VR1 SAE 50 racing oil and one quart of 5w30 conventional oil.

[JSeery]

So was he getting "0" oil pressure? Checking in on the back of the block on the drivers side by the bellhousing? That oil is a little on the heavy side!

[Mike in AZ]

welcome to the 'Barn....got pics of the '36??....good luck with your dilemma....engine was running with no oil pressure??....always good to get as much info out as possible......Mike

[flatheadmurre]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Has the guy had the engine apart ?
Did he forget/misplace the oilpressure relief valve ?

[actioncat]

The guy has not had the engine apart. It ran last September. Know nothing of the oil pressure relief valve.

Did not know where he checked it. What recommendation for oil should I be using? Would a heavier oil give a different reading?

I will get you all some pics. The truck looks good on the outside, but mechanical it is a mess. One anti chatter rod in not even in the hole and the other is loose. Wires are everywhere. It was suppose to be restored at a restoration shop. Looks more like a band-aid job. I am going to step in a take over.

[JSeery]

I would use a lighter oil myself. The questions were just an attempt to figure out how he knew there was no oil pressure. The oil pressure is normally checked at the fitting right above the top oil pump gear in the first picture and where the oil pressure sending unit is in the second picture. Left rear edge of the block by the bellhousing. My concern would be if you are not positive there is no oil pressure then you may be chasing a ghost.

[jetmek]

too high a scale on test gauge? those early engines seldom develop more than 25-30 psi in good condition. also make sure the cork gasket is in place sheetmetal cover/pickup housing and the pump body or it could suck air

[JSeery]

There could be a plug missing inside somewhere but until you know what the pump is out putting for sure it is hard to say.

[Binx]

I'd start with a little self-education if you've never worked on a flathead before.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/rebuilding-the-famous-ford-flathead-ron-bishop/1029602713?r=1&ean=9780830620661&kpid=978083062066 1&cm_mmc=GooglePLA-_-Book_Under5-_-Q000000633-_-9780830620661

This book is great not only for understanding the engine but has troubleshooting sections for all of the early ford systems like generator, electrical, ignition, etc. Great book! It'll make you a little more confident before you jump in.

Lonnie

[actioncat]

I did not do proper troubleshooting protocol. I should have checked the oil pressure myself. My best bet is to button it up and start from square one. I just got to excited about spinning some wrenches.

[deuce_roadster]

Drain the oil and put in some lighter wt oil. If the pump lost its prime from sitting it may not have been able to suck up the heavier 50 wt oil if the oil screen was crudded up like they get. If the "0 oil pressure" was determined due to just cranking the engine there very well could be no problem but you do need to investigate. I imagine you cleaned the pan and screen since you have the pan off, was there a bunch of sludge in there?

[G.M.]

In good condition that pump will put out well over 70 pounds pressure. To do the job ONCE and take all the guess work out you need to test the pump out of the engine before installing it. Look in early posts for a complete description of testing the pump before installing and adjusting the oil pressure to 50 pounds with the engine sitting on the floor of in the car. G.M.

[actioncat]

I finally spoke with the guy and he is legit. Dad also forgot to mention that the oil pressure was not there before this guy changed the oil. He did have a sweet '55 ford station wagon. We looked at the oil pump and everything seemed fine. I showed him some pieces that I found in the oil pan. He said they look like the pressure regulator. I tore into that, but the pressure regulator was a lot larger and all there. Here is the pic of what I found in the oil pan.ford parts.jpg

I have tried to clean out everywhere I could. Some gunk, but nothing serious. I can not find the post on how to test the oil pumps outside of the engine block. Any help?

Here are the pics of the truck
[ATTACH]ford pic 2.jpg[/ATTACH]

[actioncat]

My family used to have a bunch of trucks. That is the same garage that I am working on the 1936 Ford.
image 1.jpg

[Kahuna]

That /those parts are from the/a pressure relief on the pump.
Make sure those parts are in place (I'm assuming that that pump had a relief valve in it).

[Bruce Lancaster]

1. There is a threaded plug at each end of the main oil gallery. If left out...!
2. Drive gear on cam is pressed onto a round part on some cams, and if that connection is failing it might turn pump when not running, but slip when trying to make pressure.
3. Pressure regulator in valley at front on main gallery, accessible by removing intake. If parts there are missing...
4. Commonest replacement pump is Melling repro 1950-53 pump. This adds a second pressure regulator on pump into the system, with spring and piston that might have been left out by a meddler. Also, a HAMBER with zero pressure on a newly built engine discovered that his new Melling pump had a badly machined seat for that regulator that could not close properl, dumping the pressure right there at the pump.

Most other types of mechanical slop and ruin will give poor pressure but not zero.

[flatheadmurre]

A pic of the pump will tell us what they put in there.
If they changed to a newer style pump and reused the pickup you get issues to.

[actioncat]

The pump is the old long body.

I pulled the intake manifold and checked the bypass, it looked good. I sprayed carb cleaner into every port I could find to clean any crud out. I followed this with some burst of air pressure.

Reassemble the oil pump and put Lucas rebuild grease in the gears to help prime. Put the oil pan on temporarily with no seals. Removed the electric oil pressure sending unit and filled the hole with some Lucas rebuild grease, waited a few hours and then filled with the SAE 50 oil. Also filled the oil pan with the oil I had removed, (it was practically brand new). Put the starter on, removed the spark plugs.

I put a new 0-80 psi oil gauge in place of the electrical sending unit. Cranked the starter a few times and nothing came up the tubing. I removed the gauge and cranked it some more and finally it slowly crept up the tubing. It took a long time to get the oil to the gauge. Gauge barely moved, but it was under the starter. I then removed the plug that is right under the oil pressure sending unit. Oil did flow but not at a great pressure.

One other thing, every time I let the starter rest, the oil would start sliding back down the tube on the mechanical pressure gauge. Is that back flow normal?

Should I be happy that I have some pressure? I think if I switch to a lighter oil (Castrol 20-50 or a Rotella 15w-40) the pressure would be better. This oil is very thick.

Thanks for y'alls help. I greatly appreciate it.

[Bruce Lancaster]

With so little push going on I would next look at the front plug of the main tube. If it is missing, from a friend's experience it results in about what you are seeing...the barest trace of pressure, in his case enough that no damage resulted.
With long type pump, I don't think you would have priming troubles.

[Kahuna]

DOes the pump in the engine have an oil pressure relief valve?
Show me the pump. Please?

[Bruce Lancaster]

None of the long pumps or pre-8BA pumps had their own relief...they were regulated by the relief valve in the valley.

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

None of the long pumps or pre-8BA pumps had their own relief...they were regulated by the relief valve in the valley.

That made me a little suspicious about finding the parts in the oilsump and i was curious if they had it apart and misplaces the relief valve.

If the seat of the relief valve is real bad or they replaced the part in the pan with something not fitting right....

[Kahuna]

Hi Bruce
That is incorrect. I have the long pump in a 59 block with the relief in the pump. I also have a long pump with No relief valve.
In the running engine, I use the long pump with relief and then made the valley relief adjustable, for ease of adjustment in the event I want more or less pressure.

[JSeery]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

If the spring and bolt found in the oil pan are to that pump that would explain the oil pressure issues!

[Kahuna]

My thoughts exactly, which is why I'd like to see the pump

[actioncat]

[ATTACH]oil pump2.jpg[/ATTACH]


Here is the oil pump.

[Kahuna]

Thanks
That is the long pump without the pressure relief valve.
I have no idea what your oil pressure problem is now

[1931 flamingo]

Dump the oil again and try some 10-30. FWIW
PAul in CT

[flatheadmurre]

There must be some major issue here not just to heavy oil...
Check so all bearings and plugs and the bushing for the pumprod is there...

[actioncat]

Update:

We bought a new "shorty" oil pump and the new pick up tube. The problem is that the pick up is hitting the oil baffle. Can I remove this oil baffle in the bottom of the oil pan?

[jetmek]

yes remove the baffle..ck crank to pickup tube clearance and set pan on temporarily to be sure the screen is as close to the pan as possible without hitting it...sometimes the tube needs tweeking.

[Karl Wolf]

The drive gear on the rear of the cam isn't spinning, is it? I didn't see anyone mention this as a possibility...

Karl

[actioncat]

Quick update. I replaced the long body pump with a new short body pump and pickup. I did have to cut out some of the baffles and bend the tubing to make it fit. I made sure it was not hitting the crankshaft. I put 20w-50 valvoline zr1 racing oil back in it. I had a simple $20 bosch mechanical oil pump gauge, but I went to grainger and got another liquid pressure gauge that reads 0-30 psi and put it on instead. I now have about 5 psi cold and 2.5 psi when hot. I have not driven it. When I do rev it up, it will get to 5 psi hot. I also added one can of SeaFoam to the crankcase oil to clean it out. I have run it at idle for about 15-20 minutes at a time. I have done this about 6 or seven times. Just waiting for it to cool down to try a short little drive.

[flatheadmurre]

5 psi reving.....with a new pump...
You better find out where the oil is going....

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

My money is on the main oil line plug behind the cam gear is left out. Walt

[flatheadmurre]

Pumprod bushing totally gone is another option.
Think i said it before...hook up your compressor to the oilpressure switch port and listen for a major leak.
With intake of a broken pumprod bushing should be heard so should oil and air coming back from any missing plug.
That way you know what end to start disecting...

[actioncat]

Do you have to remove the engine block to get out the pump rod bushing? I will try the air compressor. I have to bring mine from the shop down here. The switch port, is that the same place you hook the gauges up to? Once again thanks for all your help.

[Bruce Lancaster]

I think pushrod bushing is an unlikely suspect...I'ver never seen one worn through, just a little sloppy. You can see it and look down it from above with engine in car.
Go for likelier stuff...that front plug is STILL the likeliest suspect for a big internal leak.

[Ol' Ron]

I presonaly thing 10-30 oil would be the best bet. That way all the oil that comes out of the pimp goes through the bearings. remember this is a positive displacement pump. AS for the pressure gauge, leave the line off the gauge until all the air is out of it. I run 5-20 in a new engine. get 10lbs at idle and 40 at 2k.

[actioncat]

How do you get to this front plug? I can not seem to find it on any drawings. I did try bleeding the line to the gauge, it did not make much of a difference.

[JSeery]

Air in the fuel gauge line will not change the gauge reading, the air just compresses.

The plug is 18-6026-A Plug, Cylinder Block Oil Line 3/8-18 Pipe.

It is inside the front cover at the end of the block oil galley.

It is shown in the engine block illustrations.

Note: the same plug is also used at the rear of the galley.

[Kurt in NJ]

The way to find the pressure loss without taking everything apart is to make a pressure pot to feed oil under pressure into the gauge port, then (with the pan off) see where it comes out, bearings should only have drip, keep the pressure under the 30 lbs or so that opens the front valve