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Old 03-08-2014, 07:24 AM   #1
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

Here's a couple pictures from ebay items now for sale. The first picture shows what can happen if the engine kicks back from forgetting to retard the spark when cranking the engine.

The second picture shows a new spring for comparison. When buying a new spring make sure to get one that matches your bolt size, as 2 different size bolts were used on the spring eyes.
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File Type: jpg Starter Spring Bent.jpg (41.5 KB, 186 views)
File Type: jpg Starter Spring New.jpg (31.5 KB, 96 views)
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:31 AM   #2
Patrick L.
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

Unless I'm looking at the pic incorrectly, looks to be more wrong than just the spring. Ouch !
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:36 AM   #3
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

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Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
Unless I'm looking at the pic incorrectly, looks to be more wrong than just the spring. Ouch !
Yes, in one picture the pinion weight appears to be loose and crooked, but in another picture it looks OK. It does happen to be pictured in the engaged position. Here's a link to the listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-MODEL-A...6#ht_499wt_882
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

My early 28 usually broke the shaft off
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

And do be careful about matching parts. Ebay may be a source of "left handed" springs which are actually for another starter application.

They look EXACTLY like Model A springs - are made by Bendix - but are for a Volvo I think.

And have been known to end up in the parts stream headed for Model A land.

At least one of the major Model A parts suppliers have been fooled by this.

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Old 03-08-2014, 12:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

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Joe brings up a good point, however the Model A spring IS the one with the left hand spring. If you follow the turns, it is the same as a left handed screw thread. I wasn't thinking once at a swap meet and bought a right hand spring, but that's OK, as it was cheap and a good display learning lesson.

If you can't remember which spring is correct, then you will have to picture how the starter applies the torque through the spring to the pinion, then to the flywheel. You always want the torque to be in the direction that tends to make the spring get tighter, rather than expand outward. So, it's also important to remember that the Model A pinion enters from the rear of the flywheel, rather than the front, as on many other makes. I think it's easiest just to remember the coils are wound the same as a left hand thread.
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

I believe that the "T" Model uses the right handed spring. I could be wrong, if so, I wish someone would correct me. I've been told that, but never had a "T".
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

I said left handed but perhaps should have said "opposite handed" as I'm not sure of the correct wind of a Model A spring?

It would make sense that a Model T spring and starter motor rotation might be opposite hand. The Model T starter faces forward to contact the timing gear if memory serves.

I bring a known good Model A spring with me when I go to buy springs henceforth?

I think it was Tam (Joe Tamboello) of the parts company who was good enough to point out the difference (and possibility of error) to me.

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Old 03-08-2014, 01:30 PM   #9
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

The "Service Bulletin" pages 370,371,and 372 show pictures of starter drive components including Model T.

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Old 03-08-2014, 08:32 PM   #10
glenn in camino
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

Quote:
Originally Posted by gridleak View Post
My early 28 usually broke the shaft off
Is there a replacement shaft available?
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

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Is there a replacement shaft available?
They are much harder to find than the common 5/8" shaft armatures. The bearing or bushing area for the 1/2" shaft armatures is much larger than the 5/8" shaft, which has the same size bushing of 5/8".

The main reason for a 1/2" shaft armature to snap is because when someone did the modification, as shown in the SERVICE BULLETINS, they didn't follow the Service Bulletins exactly with reguard to the radius at the end of the lathe cut.

I bought a broken shaft 1/2" starter, just for spare parts years ago, and close inspection shows it didn't have the prescribed radius.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

My fifteen year grandson Jonathan was starting his '29 Tudor and forgot to retard the spark lever. I was off in the distance yelling to him to "retard the spark!" After about the tenth power stroke of the engine trying to kick backwards, due to high high amperage draw of fighting the near engine stall, the starter contacts welded them selves together. Jonathan turned the ignition off but the engine just kept on cranking over. Because the floor boards were screwed down so we couldn't get to the battery cables quick enough to unhook one of them, the battery cranked the motor over until the battery was dead. All was soon quickly repaired. Jonathan won't ever forget to retard his spark lever the next time he starts his car. I am just glad that it didn't hurt the starter.
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:46 AM   #13
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

SSsssteamer, good diagnostics. I never thought about the added current of advanced spark causing the switch contacts to stick.

So, do you really have a Stanley Steamer?
There's usually a couple that run the New London to New Brighton run each year. There used to be an 1899 Locomobile steamer at local shows, but I haven't seen it in over 20 years. That was one of the most beautifully restored cars I'd ever seen.
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Old 03-09-2014, 06:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

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Originally Posted by SSsssteamer View Post
My fifteen year grandson Jonathan was starting his '29 Tudor and forgot to retard the spark lever. I was off in the distance yelling to him to "retard the spark!" After about the tenth power stroke of the engine trying to kick backwards, due to high high amperage draw of fighting the near engine stall, the starter contacts welded them selves together. Jonathan turned the ignition off but the engine just kept on cranking over. Because the floor boards were screwed down so we couldn't get to the battery cables quick enough to unhook one of them, the battery cranked the motor over until the battery was dead. All was soon quickly repaired. Jonathan won't ever forget to retard his spark lever the next time he starts his car. I am just glad that it didn't hurt the starter.
Mine use to do that. But it wasn't because of the spark advance. If there's a high spot on either brass button on the starter or the brass strip on the switch, it'll send too much energy through the high point, welding it together. Take sand paper and smooth it out. If it happens again, just stop on the starter button several times really hard like you're trying to put smother a piece of paper on fire. It'll come undone- or at least in my experience it did.
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

The only times that I've heard of the contacts sticking was caused by a repro starter switch with the wrong metal for the strip in the switch. I think it may have been copper instead of brass. Usually if the spark isn't retarded or the timing is too advanced, the starter kick back either breaks the bendix spring or bends the starter shaft.

I think that the backwards bendix springs were used on Ford tractors, maybe 8N.
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:12 AM   #16
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

one reason for a master cut off under the seat
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Old 03-09-2014, 06:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
I said left handed but perhaps should have said "opposite handed" as I'm not sure of the correct wind of a Model A spring?

It would make sense that a Model T spring and starter motor rotation might be opposite hand. The Model T starter faces forward to contact the timing gear if memory serves.

I bring a known good Model A spring with me when I go to buy springs henceforth?

I think it was Tam (Joe Tamboello) of the parts company who was good enough to point out the difference (and possibility of error) to me.

Joe K
Joe K........................
Just remember that you want a spring that runs opposite to the threads of a normal bolt.
MIKE (mikeburch)
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:41 AM   #18
SSsssteamer
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

Reply to Tom Wesenberg: We have five Stanley steamers. Model A Fords can be steamers too if you run with your spark retarded on a hot summer day.
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:42 AM   #19
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

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Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE View Post
Joe K........................
Just remember that you want a spring that runs opposite to the threads of a normal bolt.
MIKE (mikeburch)
"Righty - Tightly, Lefty - Loosy" right, er, correct?

Kidding and thanks. I am among those who are directionally challenged. As ROTC drill instructor I was one who had to hold the rock in MY right hand.

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Old 03-10-2014, 02:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: Don't Forget to Retard the Spark to Start

I cured myself of that after unjamming the starter and retrieving broken bolts many times from the clutch housing by ALWAYS retarding the spark before turning the key off when stopping the engine, so far so good.
Here is a pic of the correct an incorrect spring, not sure of who to thank,?.
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File Type: jpg MODEL A BENDIX SPRINGS.jpg (16.0 KB, 27 views)
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