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Old 11-13-2013, 09:14 PM   #41
Old Henry
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Default Re: Best rust solution?

12 more hours (24 total now) and both chemicals seem to be making progress on the "warts"

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Old 11-13-2013, 10:32 PM   #42
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Default Re: Best rust solution?

Well, Henry, I suppose heating the solutions to about 180 F might give a more representative real-world comparison. But I'm still more interested in your forensic analysis as to why it leaked all of a sudden. Sounds to me like the spring holding the seal in place broke all of a sudden from corrosion. I anxiously await your analysis. 8^)

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Old 11-14-2013, 01:04 AM   #43
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Well, Henry, I suppose heating the solutions to about 180 F might give a more representative real-world comparison.
Jack E/NJ

You're probably right about the heat. It would most likely speed up the chemical reaction as it does to most chemical reactions. Agitation would also. But I'm soaking them in plastic buckets so I guess I won't be heating them up. In the long run, it will probably be good to see how the chemicals work in an engine that's just sitting as most engines on this forum seem to do.

As for trying to take apart the pumps and see what I can see, AnnaRae, Pepe, and I are Headed on a three day road trip in Old Henry Thursday for my birthday so further analysis will have to wait until next week. I'll leave the pumps soaking while I'm gone. Hopefully, they'll both be clean when I return.
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Last edited by Old Henry; 11-16-2013 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #44
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Default Re: Best rust solution?

Another 12 hours (36 total) and the vinegar on the right is still progressing. The Evapo-rust on the left not so much.
Am leaving on a road trip for three days so next check will be on Saturday night.

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Old 11-14-2013, 03:08 PM   #45
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Default Re: Best rust solution?

Use then sequentially! The E-rust will never remove anything that isn't rust, the vinegar will be eating clean iron before it kills all the rust. Get the rust, then the calcium or whatever it is, then another run of evap because some of the white stuff is probably protecting rust.
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:17 PM   #46
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Test is ended. Here are the results after 4 days of soaking:
Evapo-Rust on the left. Vinegar on the right.



And after a quick wipe with my finger inside of both pumps, there is no residue from the Evapo-Rust whereas the vinegar has left substantial not changed much in the last 36 hours.



36 hours ago (from Post # 44):



Also note that the vinegar ate the paint off of the right pump and then the metal rusted after the paint was gone. Not good in my opinion. (First picture from post # 1 before any treatment. All paint still on the right pump.)



I checked the warts with a magnet then scraped some off after the test was concluded and they were nothing but solid rust, not calcium nor lime deposits.

Another noticeable difference is that the Evapo-Rust solution is still totally clear with just a few black particles at the bottom, probably dirt from the outside of the pump.



Whereas, the vinegar solution is cloudy and milky rust colored.





My conclusions:

1. The Evapo-Rust is far superior to plain vinegar. It does any and all that vinegar does and more and leaves the metal and the solution clear and clean.

2. Acid may do some good but not enough when compared to the bad it also does at the same time. I figured out later that the reason the vinegar quit working is that it lost its acidity. Three pints of vinegar was somehow neutralized by just the intake of the water pump sitting in it for a few days. It wore out before it even finished the job. Such doesn't predict very good results in an engine block where the ratio of metal to vinegar is even higher making it even more likely that the vinegar would be neutralized before it finished its job.

3. The thick deposits were not any kind of calcium or lime deposits. I checked them with a magnet then scraped some off (after the test was concluded) and they were nothing but solid rust.

4. Neither approach creates any "chunks" of stuff that needs to be filtered out by putting some kind of filter in the radiator to keep it from plugging up. Anything suspended in either solution will be flushed out by a good back flushing (which any filter would keep from working.) When I say "good back flushing" I mean this kind: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83557

5. Although the Evapo-rust costs more - $60.00 for 5 gallons compared to $25.00 for the vinegar - it can be reused over and over again for up to 300 lbs. of rusted steel per gallon giving additional value for the additional cost.

Next summer, when it gets time to start worrying about overheating, I'll take the radiator hoses off of the top of the heads and look down inside to see if I see any rust or corrosion even though my engine rebuilder said he "boiled it out" just in June. If there's anything I'll put in the Evapo-Rust, run it for a few days, then look in to see if the rust is all gone.

Another interesting thing I learned about Evapo-Rust from my research - you'll notice that there is a slight darkening of the metal after being cleaned by Evapo-Rust. Here is the explanation of that from the Evapo-Rust site:

"The black film is carbon from the steel. Steel is composed of a combination of carbon and iron. In certain instances, steel will darken in color after rust has been removed from the surface of the metal. This is a natural phenomenon that chemists refer to as “carbon migration”. The carbon from the steel moves, or “migrates”, to the outer layer of the metal and settles into the pores. The removal of the rust (iron oxide) reduces the proportion of iron to carbon, leaving a higher concentration of carbon on the outer surface. This heavier layer of carbon could cause a darkening of the metal due to the attributes of the carbon. The darkening does not have an adverse affect on the metal. It merely represents the movement of carbon from the interior of the metal to the exterior of the metal."

And, from another part of their site I learned that the black carbon layer turns out to be a good thing as it is a rust barrier from future or further rust whereas, metal cleaned by acid is susceptible to "flash rust" or rust that forms almost immediately when the metal in exposed to air. Possibly why the right pump is red in the pictures after I just take it out of the vinegar and rinse it with water.
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Old 11-16-2013, 08:11 PM   #47
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Old Henry>>>Test is ended>>>

Sorry, Henry. But your test is incomplete unless your engine normally runs at room temperature when it's all warmed up. Also, the analysis of what caused the sudden leak. 8^)

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Old 11-16-2013, 08:26 PM   #48
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Old Henry>>>Test is ended>>>

Sorry, Henry. But your test is incomplete unless your engine normally runs at room temperature when it's all warmed up. Also, the analysis of what caused the sudden leak. 8^)

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"Objection, your honor! The question has already been asked and answered!" the frustrated attorney points out. The judge looks over the questioner (Jack E/NJ), feels sorry for him as he appears to be a little slow on the uptake, and responds, "Objection overruled. Answer the question . . . again." "Very well, your honor. Let's hope one more time will do it."

Your point was addressed in # 43.
Heat and agitation may have speeded up the chemical process but not changed its final outcome. My test was no different than most flatheads that sit for days at a time at "room temperature" without being run at all. My test is an illustration of the results under those circumstances. Results would, no doubt, be quicker with heat and agitation but no different between the two chemicals. If you believe otherwise please provide the chemical equations and formulas as well as the laws of physics or, better still, a more "complete" test to prove such.

P.S. If you want to tear apart my leaky pump to determine the cause of its failure P.M. me your address and I'll send it to you. Looks like you're more curious about that than I am.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:46 PM   #49
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Old Henry>>>please provide the chemical equations and formulas as well as the laws of physics or, better still, a more "complete" test to prove such.>>>

You want equations? You want laws of physics? OK, Henry, I'll give you a physical chemical equation by a famous (to most chemistry cognoscenti) dead guy named Arrhenius, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation, whose equation states that for most common chemical reactions, like acid-base or vinegar-rust, the reaction rate doubles for every 10 degree C increase in temperature. However! This Evapo-rust is a proprietary, allegedly chelation-type of reaction, that old Arrhenius prolly never even heard of, much less considered common. So, to see if Arrhenius's temp-dependence equation holds for Evapo-Rust's new-fangled proprietary chelation-type reaction, there's only one way to find out. Heat it! I rest my case. As for the forensic analysis on why the sudden leak, I suggest a BFH vigorously applied to the front end of the offending pump should quickly reveal the cause. 8^)

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Old 11-16-2013, 10:56 PM   #50
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Default Re: Best rust solution?

As I said before, heat will increase the chemical reaction, just as Arrhenius said. But no more for an acidic process than a chelation one. That is the point that you are missing that I have now made three times. Three strikes and you know where you are don't you?

Hold on a minute . . .

"What did you say, Judge? . . . Objection sustained? . . . Great!"

The judge has now sustained my objection. That means I do not have to answer that question any more.

And I won't be doing nothin' with no BFH either so you can give that one up too.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:12 PM   #51
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"Limitations of the idea of Arrhenius activation energy---Both the Arrhenius activation energy and the rate constant k are ***experimentally*** determined, and represent macroscopic reaction-specific parameters that are not simply related to threshold energies and the success of individual collisions at the molecular level. Consider a particular collision (an elementary reaction) between molecules A and B. The collision angle, the relative translational energy, the internal (particularly vibrational) energy will all determine the chance that the collision will produce a product molecule AB. Macroscopic measurements of E and k are the result of many individual collisions with differing collision parameters. To probe reaction rates at molecular level, ***experiments are conducted under near-collisional conditions*** and this subject is often called molecular reaction dynamics."

Emphasis added in triple asterisks. Heat it up, Henry! 8^)

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Old 11-16-2013, 11:22 PM   #52
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Henry...I'd bet if you used the Evapo-rust in the engine and run it through while water was moving as well as it getting hotter, you'd not have had to wipe residue off/out of anything...but only concern I'd have doing this , is could any damage occur in the pumps?

Would certainly seem your tests show it's a much better product than vinegar...are there instructions on what needs to be done to neutralize it?
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:28 PM   #53
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...are there instructions on what needs to be done to neutralize it?
As Evapo-Rust is not an acid there is nothing to "neutralize." In fact, the instructions say that if, after removing all rust, you are not going to otherwise coat the metal soon, to dip it back into the Evapo-Rust and let it dry on it. That will protect it from rust until you're ready to rinse it off and coat the metal.

Again, Evapo-Rust is neither acidic nor alkaline. It is neutral pH. There is nothing to neutralize.

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. . . only concern I'd have doing this , is could any damage occur in the pumps?
Evapo-Rust is like plain water to anything except rust. So, if plain water wouldn't hurt the pumps, neither would Evapo-Rust. In fact, after the Evapo-Rust is spent (meaning it has turned totally black indicating it's lost all of its power, which it will only do after multiple repeated uses) it can be flushed down the toilet it is so non-toxic.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:33 PM   #54
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That's pretty cool-no pun intended-seems a great way to clear out a cooling system, especially since it seems to dissolve the rust, and not just make it flake off.

Nice.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:34 PM   #55
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Emphasis added in triple asterisks.

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Oh yeah? Well, *** and *** to you too. So there.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:35 PM   #56
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That's pretty cool-no pun intended-seems a great way to clear out a cooling system, especially since it seems to dissolve the rust, and not just make it flake off.

Nice.
Yeah. Glad I never tried the acid trick before learning about it.

Only down side - it costs more than vinegar, $60.00 for five gallons compared to $25.00 for the vinegar but it can be used over and over again to de-rust up to 300 lbs. of steel per gallon so that's some compensation for the extra cost.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:57 AM   #57
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Thanks Professor for taking the time and making the effort to share the results of your analysis with us. Enjoy the road trip!
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:23 PM   #58
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After seeing the vinegar fail to finish the job of eating away the rust I continued pondering why it failed and finally had the thought that maybe it had lost its acidity so I dropped a pinch of baking soda into it which should have caused the usual chemical reaction. Nothing. Three pints of vinegar were neutralized by just the intake of the water pump sitting in it for several days before it even finished the job it started. Pretty poor performance in my opinion. Doesn't really predict great success in an engine block where the ratio of rusted metal to vinegar is way higher than my test was.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:37 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Henry, I believe your major buildup is calcium with a rust tint.

Lonnie
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Photos...I think lime AND rust!
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Get the rust, then the calcium or whatever it is, then another run of evap because some of the white stuff is probably protecting rust.
The "warts" were solid rust, nothing more. I checked them with a magnet then scraped some off and they were just solid rust, not calcium nor lime nor anything else.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:44 PM   #60
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Hi Everyone, Very revealing thread. Thanks to everyone, and especially Old Henry, for continuing my education.

-VT/JeffH
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