The Ford Barn

ldj1002 · 10-28-2011, 07:42 PM

My starter all of a sudden won't turn, just tries. I have checked and cleaned all connections, battery is good. I take off bendix and try to hold starter shaft, I can't. Used a pair of channel locks and can hold starter. I would think I should not be able to. Tried again and let the channel locks touch the frame and that made a spark. I don't think there should be a spark there. Opinions please?

jkeesey · 10-28-2011, 08:36 PM

There shouldn't be any juice at the buisiness end of your starter. Sounds like the armature is archig through. Try the same test with the starter removed and check for voltage at the bendix end with a multimeter

redmodelt · 10-28-2011, 08:52 PM

You must remove the bendix before you take the starter out. If you don't you will damage the mag coils.

Jack Innes · 10-28-2011, 09:00 PM

Good advice so far. You may find that the bushings are worn badly enough to allow the armature to rub on the field coils which can result in your symptoms - no power & current where it should not be.

Often a starter like this will run fine with no load but when engaged, the slack in the bushing is forced to one side causing the problem to show up.

jkeesey · 10-28-2011, 09:06 PM

Sorry I assumed everyone now knew to remove the bendix on a t starter before removal, which by the way should be encouraged not to so I have more t's to work on.

CharlieB · 10-28-2011, 10:32 PM

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Yeah somethings gone in there. Could be bushings. It also could be the brush mounting plate insulators have burned out. That'll juce the armature & housing for sure. If you've got enough sense to pull it you can probably re-build it too. Take your time and ask questions. We're listening.

ldj1002 · 10-29-2011, 08:30 AM

Thanks,
I have the starter off and will take it apart today.
BTW I have an old growler I bought years ago. I remember seeing mechanics use them a looong time ago. After looking it over real good and the way it is wired looks like to me you have 110v there you are fooling with. So I decided not to try it. If any one know how to use it and can caution me how not to get electrocuted I will try it out on this armature.

redmodelt · 10-29-2011, 11:15 AM

A growler is an 110v electromagnet. The windings are wrapped around a soft iron core. It may or may not have an off on switch. Wire it up and check for shorts with a meter. If it has a switch, wire the hot wire through the switch. If it has leads to check for shorts in the armature on mine they are hot as long as the unit is plugged in.
To check, place the armature in the growler and plug in the unit. Hold a hack saw blade just above the armature and turn the armature. If the blade vibrates the windings are shot. If it passes that test you will want to next test the commutator for grounds. Place one of the test leads if the unit is equipped or lead from a meter on the iron core of the armature and run the the other lead around the commutator. If the growler is not equipped with test leads you can unplug it now. There should be no reading. If there is the commutator is grounded. If it passes those test next you need to check the shaft for straightness and more then likely turn the commutator. The mica between the sections does not have to be cut down on a starter.
Next check the field windings for shorts and look at the brush holders. If the starter needs new bushings and what not, be on checking the armature and field windings I will let someone else step in.

ldj1002 · 10-29-2011, 11:21 AM

Took starter apart. The post on the inside had big glob of cold solder. When I gently moved it around so I could see a chunk broke off. I don't see how it was good enough to carry current, but it did. I can't see any indication of there there was a short. I did check continuity between + brush holder and case and all was good, no continuity. I wish I had checked continuity between that post and housing before I took apart. On that post, the screw on top has apparently been added as it is a sheet metal screw going through and isn't even centered. Bushings ok and no evidence of anything rubbing. I suppose a starter shop can fix that up for me.

ldj1002 · 10-29-2011, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redmodelt

A growler is an 110v electromagnet. The windings are wrapped around a soft iron core. It may or may not have an off on switch. Wire it up and check for shorts with a meter. If it has a switch, wire the hot wire through the switch. If it has leads to check for shorts in the armature on mine they are hot as long as the unit is plugged in.
To check, place the armature in the growler and plug in the unit. Hold a hack saw blade just above the armature and turn the armature. If the blade vibrates the windings are shot. If it passes that test you will want to next test the commutator for grounds. Place one of the test leads if the unit is equipped or lead from a meter on the iron core of the armature and run the the other lead around the commutator. If the growler is not equipped with test leads you can unplug it now. There should be no reading. If there is the commutator is grounded. If it passes those test next you need to check the shaft for straightness and more then likely turn the commutator. The mica between the sections does not have to be cut down on a starter.
Next check the field windings for shorts and look at the brush holders. If the starter needs new bushings and what not, be on checking the armature and field windings I will let someone else step in.

Photo of my growler attached
When I plug it in and I touch the test leads together the light bulb will light no mater if the switch is on or off, ie those test leads are always hot. They have to be hot with 110v since it lights the bulb. On the back of the growler there is 2 little pockets for those leads. They are metal and not insulated in any way. I am afraid to put them in there because it looks like that would be a short or make the whole thing hot and bite me. When I turn the switch on there is a humming noise. My growler has no meter on it. What is the light bulb for?

jackdaron · 10-29-2011, 01:16 PM

Normal,when light lights up,it shows continuity.

redmodelt · 10-29-2011, 01:26 PM

The leads and bulb are for testing the commutator to body of armature. That is correct that they will light the bulb when touched together. The growler will hum when you turn on the switch, that means it getting power and working. Sorry, the part about unplugging it should have read; ONCE YOU HAVE DONE THE GROWLER PART OF THE TEST YOU CAN TURN OFF THE GROWLER YOUR TEST LEADS WILL STILL BE HOT TILL THE UNIT IS UNPLUGGED. The meter I was referring to is a hand held type. The holes that look like a place to place the probs more then likely had some sort of insulating material in them. You could cut some plastic tube that would be longer then the metal part of the probes to slip on them.
WORD OF CAUTION; YOU WILL BE WORKING WITH 110V JUST WATCH WHAT YOU ARE DOING. IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO, OPEN THE BACK AND INSPECT THE WIRING.

ldj1002 · 10-29-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackdaron

Normal,when light lights up,it shows continuity.

Wouldn't it be safer to check continuity with low DC volts or else use a ohm meter? Why 110v?

redmodelt · 10-29-2011, 06:08 PM

Yes. You can disconnect the two leads to the probes and still use the growler. That is just how they made them, may be made the same way today.

Doug Money · 10-30-2011, 08:08 AM

The post you refer to is a common fault area. Someone previously overtightened the nut loosening the post. It is easy to fix, even easy to make a new one. If you need to let me know and I can direct you to pictures of how to do it.

ldj1002 · 10-30-2011, 08:53 AM

Please do, I'll give it a try. My solder iron may not get hot enough for that heavy of connection but worth a try

Doug Money · 10-30-2011, 02:31 PM

Hope this helps.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1182802403

ldj1002 · 10-30-2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Money

Hope this helps.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1182802403

Yes that helps a lot.
My stud didn't have a nut that would go inside the starter with one on the outside to tighten down making it a good tight fit in the starter housing. Picture in that link I can't tell if a nut is inside or not. If there isn't one there what holds the stud solid? Surely not just pulling it against where the buss material is soldered.

Doug Money · 10-30-2011, 04:42 PM

Bottom nut holds the stud while you tighten the top nut. Do not let the stud turn at all when tightening the cable.

tmodelman · 10-30-2011, 04:47 PM

There isn't a nut underside, the buss bar bolt takes all the leverage and can break loose if you wrench the cable nut too tight. The only protection of over leverage of the buss bar bolt is the lock nut against the starter case. That does the holding, the cable then fits on the bolt, and the second nut secures the cable ever so gently, never to be wrenched on without a second wrench holding fast the lower nut.

Picture from Ford Service shop manual, fig. 490, ,page 228, 'Starting Motor Overhaul''

10-28-2011, 07:42 PM	#1
ldj1002 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 181	Starter ? My starter all of a sudden won't turn, just tries. I have checked and cleaned all connections, battery is good. I take off bendix and try to hold starter shaft, I can't. Used a pair of channel locks and can hold starter. I would think I should not be able to. Tried again and let the channel locks touch the frame and that made a spark. I don't think there should be a spark there. Opinions please?

10-28-2011, 08:36 PM	#2
jkeesey Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Glenmoore Pa Posts: 1,644	Re: Starter ? There shouldn't be any juice at the buisiness end of your starter. Sounds like the armature is archig through. Try the same test with the starter removed and check for voltage at the bendix end with a multimeter

10-28-2011, 08:52 PM	#3
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,342	Re: Starter ? You must remove the bendix before you take the starter out. If you don't you will damage the mag coils.

10-28-2011, 09:00 PM	#4
Jack Innes Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Brooklin, Ontario Posts: 704	Re: Starter ? Good advice so far. You may find that the bushings are worn badly enough to allow the armature to rub on the field coils which can result in your symptoms - no power & current where it should not be. Often a starter like this will run fine with no load but when engaged, the slack in the bushing is forced to one side causing the problem to show up.

10-28-2011, 09:06 PM	#5
jkeesey Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Glenmoore Pa Posts: 1,644	Re: Starter ? Sorry I assumed everyone now knew to remove the bendix on a t starter before removal, which by the way should be encouraged not to so I have more t's to work on.

10-28-2011, 10:32 PM	#6
CharlieB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Toms River N.J. Posts: 515	Re: Starter ? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Yeah somethings gone in there. Could be bushings. It also could be the brush mounting plate insulators have burned out. That'll juce the armature & housing for sure. If you've got enough sense to pull it you can probably re-build it too. Take your time and ask questions. We're listening.

10-29-2011, 08:30 AM	#7
ldj1002 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 181	Re: Starter ? Thanks, I have the starter off and will take it apart today. BTW I have an old growler I bought years ago. I remember seeing mechanics use them a looong time ago. After looking it over real good and the way it is wired looks like to me you have 110v there you are fooling with. So I decided not to try it. If any one know how to use it and can caution me how not to get electrocuted I will try it out on this armature.

10-29-2011, 11:15 AM	#8
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,342	Re: Starter ? A growler is an 110v electromagnet. The windings are wrapped around a soft iron core. It may or may not have an off on switch. Wire it up and check for shorts with a meter. If it has a switch, wire the hot wire through the switch. If it has leads to check for shorts in the armature on mine they are hot as long as the unit is plugged in. To check, place the armature in the growler and plug in the unit. Hold a hack saw blade just above the armature and turn the armature. If the blade vibrates the windings are shot. If it passes that test you will want to next test the commutator for grounds. Place one of the test leads if the unit is equipped or lead from a meter on the iron core of the armature and run the the other lead around the commutator. If the growler is not equipped with test leads you can unplug it now. There should be no reading. If there is the commutator is grounded. If it passes those test next you need to check the shaft for straightness and more then likely turn the commutator. The mica between the sections does not have to be cut down on a starter. Next check the field windings for shorts and look at the brush holders. If the starter needs new bushings and what not, be on checking the armature and field windings I will let someone else step in. Last edited by redmodelt; 10-29-2011 at 11:18 AM. Reason: added something

10-29-2011, 01:16 PM	#11
jackdaron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Brownsburg,In. Posts: 383	Re: Starter ? Normal,when light lights up,it shows continuity.

10-29-2011, 01:26 PM	#12
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,342	Re: Starter ? The leads and bulb are for testing the commutator to body of armature. That is correct that they will light the bulb when touched together. The growler will hum when you turn on the switch, that means it getting power and working. Sorry, the part about unplugging it should have read; ONCE YOU HAVE DONE THE GROWLER PART OF THE TEST YOU CAN TURN OFF THE GROWLER YOUR TEST LEADS WILL STILL BE HOT TILL THE UNIT IS UNPLUGGED. The meter I was referring to is a hand held type. The holes that look like a place to place the probs more then likely had some sort of insulating material in them. You could cut some plastic tube that would be longer then the metal part of the probes to slip on them. WORD OF CAUTION; YOU WILL BE WORKING WITH 110V JUST WATCH WHAT YOU ARE DOING. IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO, OPEN THE BACK AND INSPECT THE WIRING.

10-29-2011, 06:08 PM	#14
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,342	Re: Starter ? Yes. You can disconnect the two leads to the probes and still use the growler. That is just how they made them, may be made the same way today. Last edited by redmodelt; 10-29-2011 at 06:15 PM.

10-30-2011, 08:08 AM	#15
Doug Money Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 350	Re: Starter ? The post you refer to is a common fault area. Someone previously overtightened the nut loosening the post. It is easy to fix, even easy to make a new one. If you need to let me know and I can direct you to pictures of how to do it.

10-30-2011, 08:53 AM	#16
ldj1002 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 181	Re: Starter ? Please do, I'll give it a try. My solder iron may not get hot enough for that heavy of connection but worth a try

10-30-2011, 02:31 PM	#17
Doug Money Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 350	Re: Starter ? Hope this helps. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1182802403

10-30-2011, 04:42 PM	#19
Doug Money Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 350	Re: Starter ? Bottom nut holds the stud while you tighten the top nut. Do not let the stud turn at all when tightening the cable.