Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

[Lawrie]

I have just got 8 rebuilt rods for my 33 engine,this engine was as smooth as silk, I,m going to replace the rods in it as they were .004 oversize on the big end bore so getting bearings was a problem,hence the rod change out,I ,m going to buy a set of engine balancing scales and do them myself as to get them done here is WAY more than the cost of the scales,I plan on weighing the rods that came out and adjusting the replacement ones to the same weight.
Lawrie

[Ol' Ron]

Lawrie
I made a balance scale by putting a bar with a hole in it's center and a wire hook at each end, now put a rod at each end untill you find the lightest one and make all the rest the same. You'll be supprised at how close they all are. If you use a set of rods from the same engine, there balanced as a set from the factory. Probably a good reason you don't have to balance these engines. Good luck. I don't bother with the small end.

[supereal]

That sounds like a balance problem with the flywheel. When we resurface a flywheel we rebalance it.

[George/Maine]

I would scrap that flywheel been redone to many times.
I have another guess the quality control today is not good.
I would look at the weights of those pistons, dimensions,
Doesn't say anything knocks, so rods and bearing must be good.

[bobH]

If I have followed this thread correctly... I believe the pistons and rods are the same ones used at the last 'rebuild' - something like 20K (or so) miles ago before the current 'rebuild'. I don't believe Henry complained about balance during those miles on the previous rebuild. For this reason, I'm thinking that he's not going to find the vibration problem due to pistons and rods. (Course, I still think an engine ought to be balanced - that's just me, and OT, here)
The crank came from his first engine. No balance comments back then.
Based on what I've read here, I'd think the crank, and pistons/rods, ought to go together, 'good-enough', without vibration issues. (And, repeating, I still think it ought to be balanced, still OT here.)
So, what's left? The flywheel - I think I recall it's one that Henry has used before? It ought to be 'good-enough'. Clutch? It's a new, unknown. Assembly errors? I don't have any in mind - maybe someone else can offer ideas? Harmonic balancer? It doesn't have one.
I'm guessing here... Those one or two damaged rods - were they replaced with rods from another set? (This being during the most recent rebuild.) My guess is they probably were. If so, is there a possibility of a mis-matched set of rods? I'm 'with' Ron's comment above - I try to use sets of rods that all came from the same engine. If unknown, or if they ar not from the same engine, then I weigh them - total weight, and big-end weight, and try to match them.
In the old days, when we had buckets of rods, I would try to hand-select rods that all matched, weight-wise, without any 'weight-adjustments'. Nowdays, I no longer have that option (buckets-of), and I have to 'adjust' weights.

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by Binx

Come-backs to a shop are usually low priority work since they don't pay the bills. Visit the shop often with maybe a box of doughnuts for goodwill. Catch the flies with sugar or Old Henry may be out of commission for a long time.

Lonnie

Good advice. My last conversation with Paul after I took my car back in was less than friendly.

So, I dropped in today with a dozen donuts for Paul and found him fabricating a stand to run the engine on outside of the car. He had the engine out and hanging above the stand that he was making. The clutch was off of the flywheel. I asked, "Have you sent the flywheel and clutch to check for balance?" "No." "Why not?" "I'd have to remove the oil pan to get the flywheel off to do that. I decided to run the engine without the clutch and see how it goes." That is exactly what Fort Wayne Clutch said to do when I called them and told them my mechanic thinks the clutch is out of balance. But, it would seem easier to me to check the flywheel and clutch on a balancer before building a stand and running the engine. Oh well. Each to his own.

[flatjack9]

Had he done that initially, there would have been a lot less hassle.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Good advice. My last conversation with Paul after I took my car back in was less than friendly.

So, I dropped in today with a dozen donuts for Paul and found him fabricating a stand to run the engine on outside of the car. He had the engine out and hanging above the stand that he was making. The clutch was off of the flywheel. I asked, "Have you sent the flywheel and clutch to check for balance?" "No." "Why not?" "I'd have to remove the oil pan to get the flywheel off to do that. I decided to run the engine without the clutch and see how it goes." That is exactly what Fort Wayne Clutch said to do when I called them and told them my mechanic thinks the clutch is out of balance. But, it would seem easier to me to check the flywheel and clutch on a balancer before building a stand and running the engine. Oh well. Each to his own.

Just opinion here, and we all know what that is worth....
At this point, or at this juncture, I don't see much point in trying to run the engine. You have already run it. The 'stand' was your car. You already know it vibrates. All your mechanic can do, is run it with and without the PP & disc. After that, if the flywheel is removed, I think Paul does not have a way to start it. Not much point in building a stand, for so little return.
In my area, I have a clutch place (called Clutch Masters), that can (and does) run the flywheel, with & without the PP. It's so quick and easy, they don't even charge to do it. (And, if they do a balance, drill hole(s), the charge is very minimal.) So, if a problem is found with the clutch and flywheel, then it needs to be corrected. I assume you & Paul have access to such a place in your local area.
At that point, then the engine, with flywheel & clutch, need to be run. And, if it still vibrates, well... you know what's next.
It would be nice if you have access to a vibration meter. It would remove guess work from 'how much vibration is acceptable'. If Paul runs it now, I would imagine he would run it with the PP installed (baseline), then run again with PP removed. If there is a problem, he would hopefully feel the difference. With a meter, he could know for sure if there is a problem. The meter that I'm thinking of, and the one I have used, has a probe that you hold against suspect areas - in this case, near the rear main, probably where the pan bolts to the block.
As said... Just opinion

BTW, if you had/have a meter, you can also hold the probe near the center main (on the pan rail), and near the front main. Usually, this will direct you to the area where vibration is coming from. For example, pistons/rods/crank, near the front, or near the middle main. This is usually good for rotating machinery, motors, driveshafts, and the like. Not sure if this would work on a running engine.

[Old Henry]

Yeah. I was kinda surprised that he thought it easier to build a stand and run the engine for whatever that would prove rather than just checking the balance of the flywheel and clutch.

I told him I had another road trip planned in two weeks. (I missed the one planned last weekend that he had finished the car for just three days before then discovered the intolerable vibration.) He was confident all would be in order for that one. Hope he's right.

[Bertha]

Prof. O. Henry,

I’m sure I speak for all the “mechanics” posting on this and your other, “repair my vibration & re-build my engine please threads.”

You are the most optimistic, easy going customer in this galaxy.
In 40+years of KnlBusting you are truly one-of-a-kind.

May the Big Henry in the sky watch over you…. and ‘Paul’

BTW…been following your adventures for quite awhile now, enjoyed them all.

Bob

[Old Henry]

Stopped in to check things this morning. Paul had the engine on the stand and had run it without the clutch. No better. He started and ran it while I was there and it definitely vibrated at higher RPM. I could see it shaking from a distance.

He's now going to drop the pan so he can remove the flywheel to have checked. If that checks out OK (balanced and all) he'll have to tear into the crankshaft.

I repeat a question that I've asked before without an answer:
How can one know if there is something wrong with a crankshaft other than out of balance that maybe can't be repaired and must be replaced? What tests other than balancing would indicate such?

I don't remember this kind of vibration when I ran the car with this original crankshaft before it was replace in 2009. I have stored it horizontally, which, I have recently read, is not good for some reason.

So, how can I know whether this crankshaft has some unrepairable problem and needs replaced?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Bertha

Prof. O. Henry,

I’m sure I speak for all the “mechanics” posting on this and your other, “repair my vibration & re-build my engine please threads.”

You are the most optimistic, easy going customer in this galaxy.
In 40+years of KnlBusting you are truly one-of-a-kind.

May the Big Henry in the sky watch over you…. and ‘Paul’

BTW…been following your adventures for quite awhile now, enjoyed them all.

Bob

Thanks, Bob.
I still have a few adventures on my bucket list if I can ever get my car back on the road. Hopefully in two weeks and again in 4 weeks.
Certainly have my fingers crossed.

[scooder]

Henry,
With your crank question. If there was an issue with the crank that caused the vibration, the balancer should point it out. If the crank was bent, that would show on the balancer I feel, by the way it "asked" for added or removed weight. An experienced operator would have picked this up. Also if bent, it would show on the crank grinder, you can here the machine and it would sound "off" again experience is a given here.
I'd also like to think they checked the crank for straight, either on V blocks and dial gauge or again on the grinder.
If the crank was "off" in any way, the machine shop should have caught it..
This is why the innards should have been balanced, it would have/should have been caught earlier.
But we all make mistakes.
Good luck, and keep us posted, maybe we can all learn a bit from there mistake?
Martin.

[supereal]

It seems almost too simple, but this type of periodic vibration can also be caused by an incorrect V belt. Modern V belts usually don't fit the contours of the old Ford pulleys, where the power is applied to the sides, allowing the belt to ride down too far. The belt must be very tight to handle the load, and ends up in the bottom of the groove. The belt will resonate at a certain speed, producing the vibration. The cure is to use belts sold by good old car vendors, not the local parts places. As to running an engine on a stand, we just don't do it because it can be unsafe. We rebuild lots of engines, and haven't found it justifies the time and cost.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by supereal

It seems almost too simple, but this type of periodic vibration can also be caused by an incorrect V belt.

By "periodic vibration" I wonder if you mean a vibration at just a narrow range of RPM such as an unbalanced tire that bounces at a narrow range of speed but not below or above it? My engine vibration is not like that. It starts at a certain RPM and only gets worse the faster it goes. I tried "driving through it" by getting well above the 45-50 mph range that it started at and it didn't go away the faster I went, it just got worse. And I got almost to 70 trying to "get past it."

[Mart]

I'm crossing my fingers it's just the flywheel. It looks well past it's sell by date in the pics I have seen. Prof, do you have access to a good used flywheel that could be used as is?

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Flywheel would certainly be the easiest fix. I don't have one but could surely get one if it comes down to that being the problem.

[rooboy]

I had a similar situation as this one..I cut a piece of 2x1 timber about 12"in. long..which i held on the head(s) on it's end on the engine while reving it...In doing this, it told me that the engine was not vibrating and it was coming from elsewhere....
As it turned out it was the engine mounts that were causing the problem..
I replaced them ....no more problem...
When fitting the mounts, make sure they are fitted correctly..especially the underneath rubber..it has to be in the cross member correctly...
Also check the gearbox mounts and tail shaft area for wear and loose bolts......
This may help you sort it.......

[Bertha]

OH,

Any up-dates? Inquiring minds need to know.

Bob

[Old Henry]

Here's the next act in the drama including the thrill packed ending: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153469

And more here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154012