|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
12-04-2022, 02:34 AM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
'36 221 - rebuildable??
Hi everyone,
I'm new here and totally new to these old Fords and flatheads. I just bought a 36 Touring Sedan and had it shipped from Pennsylvania to The Netherlands. The car seems to be complete and in decent shape. We've started to inspect the engine first to see what we got ourselves into... We pulled the heads. They have the 68- prefix, I've understoord these heads were installed at a later stage, so the engine probably was rebuilt before. No LB marking found. The car whas a late 36 VIN though. Only 'SPH' in the area between the head and intake manifold. Anyone know what this means? 20221201_104437~2.jpg 20221201_104359.jpg IMG-20221130-WA0007.jpg 20221202_112434.jpg The driver's side looked ok I guess. Working on an engine is new to me, so any advice/info is welcome. The cylinders are smooth and were dry. Some coolant entered when removing the heads. What strikes me is that all the valves, except for one, are open. We had good hopes after pulling the driver's side head, but the passenger side is different. The most rear cylinder was filled with coolant (I assume) and lots of crud. The cylinder wall is very rough with rust. Same for it's valves. The head for that cylinder is the same. 20221202_114428.jpg 20221202_131043.jpg 20221202_132500.jpg 20221202_134546~2.jpg Next will be taking of the intake manifold to have a good look inside. Anyone any pointers/thoughts/tips/etc.?? What I'm wondering is how all the valves, except one, are open. And what happened to that wet cylinder. Leaking head gasket? Something internally? Anyone any experience with an engine looking like this? Thanks. Dennis |
12-04-2022, 04:39 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 782
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
The reason for the late heads, is that on it's last rebuild, they put domed piston in.
The valves are just stuck open. You can probably tap most of them back down. As for main bearings, you'll have to pull a main bearing cap and check for inserts. Check to see if there is a plate (each side) on the front of the block, where the WP would go on the later blocks. You could have a '38 style, 21 stud block. My '35 truck engine had a late block replacement. Same heads and pistons as yours.
__________________
Frank '35 Ford Model 51 '48 Ford F3 '54 Ford Tudor Mainline |
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
12-04-2022, 06:46 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: 36 miles north of Albany NY
Posts: 2,955
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Welcome to the barn, looks like you have your work cut out for you. Hang around here and you’ll learn a lot.
Get yourself this book https://shop.efv8.org/collections/fo...book-softbound Last edited by corvette8n; 12-04-2022 at 07:12 AM. Reason: Added link. |
12-04-2022, 09:28 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Welcome . I’ve got 2 late 36 21 stud engines with SPH stamped on the deck , both have insert bearings. I’ve tried to determine the SHP stamping but have 2 suggestions from others , one was steel pistons and sleeves and the other I forgot . Oh well old age .
That motor looks better than the two I cleaned up . Id check to see if the pistons are steel as they use different rings , if your intent was to rering and get it running . Good luck . Gary |
12-04-2022, 09:30 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Clean up the top of a piston and check for numbers stamped in for over size .
|
12-04-2022, 09:40 AM | #6 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Any ideas what might have caused that wet corroded cylinder? Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-04-2022, 02:20 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Check for obvious cyl head gasket leak , spark plug missing its gasket , head crack or warped or last a crack in the block .
Don’t forget these have small welch plugs on the bottom oil pan rail that can leak coolant into the oil . Make sure to replace them . |
12-04-2022, 02:22 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
That really doesnt look that bad . If I knew how to post pictures, Id show you mine before I reringed it .
|
12-04-2022, 02:38 PM | #9 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Thanks for the suggestions!
Yeah, pictures are a bit tricky. In Tapatalk on my phone, I can apparantly upload them directly into my post. On my tablet (Fordbarn website) it's different. When replying, select 'Go Advanced', then select the Attachment symbol first (paperclip symbol), add the pictures and than go back to the reply field (page back). Then the uploaded pictures could be selected through that same attachment icon. Not really userfriendly. Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-04-2022, 06:48 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,078
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
The valves are up because they are stuck in the valve guides - which is pretty common given this thing has probably been sitting for decades.
The cylinder with the rust obviously had water in it - the question is from where? Did the car have an air cleaner on it when you got it? Is it possible that water came in through the carb? That would be your best situation. As others noted, can be a blown gasket, can be a cracked block, can have fatal issues or not. etc.. One thing is for sure, you can't just throw it back together and expect it to run well . . . if at all. It is guaranteed that the valve seats are rusted, the rings will have issues on that one cylinder, etc.. Pull the engine, get the correct adapter to mount it on a stand (side mount) and get into the details of it. The right thing to do is to pull the engine and go through it - otherwise you have no idea what you're dealing with, if it can be rebuilt, etc.. I'd highly recommend that you locate some very experienced flathead guys to work with (if at all possible). These engines are relatively simple, but you still need to know the nuances about them, what to check for, what to do, what not to do, etc.. Also, any machine work that needs to be done needs to be done by a machine shop that has extensive flathead experience - otherwise all sorts of bad things can happen. Best of luck - thanks for coming on the Barn and we look forward to seeing you getting your 36 on the road! B&S |
12-05-2022, 08:14 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: ohio
Posts: 986
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
As you "clean up" that engine you might want to read GB Sicsion's post on preasure testing the block. Best wishes for a fun & GR8 build.
|
12-05-2022, 08:51 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NNNNNNNNJJJJJJJJJJ
Posts: 6,800
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
too bad you didnt buy a spare motor and put it into the trunk when you shipped the car over.......
would have come in handy. |
12-05-2022, 09:07 AM | #13 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
|
12-05-2022, 03:02 PM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Took off the intake manifold today. What a surprise awaited us...[emoji3061] I don't know what happened there, but what a mess. It's the first engine I'm taking apart though, so maybe I'm wrong here. I hope so...
Dried up oil en goey everywhere. The pistons are steel, I checked that, but I couldn't find any stamps or writings about overbore. I measured the bore, says 3.08". The valves had 'Ford F' and 'Ford R' stamps. Next will be the oil pan.... Dennis Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-05-2022, 05:53 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: sw minnesota
Posts: 4,582
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Yup ! thats a crusty flathead ! CALLING MART...TO THE FRONT DESK PLEASE !
|
12-05-2022, 06:30 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Masterton, New Zealand
Posts: 3,837
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Don't get discouraged- yet!! Keep at it. You'll need to get it fully stripped, cleaned up before you really can get an indication of what you've got. If it means anything, myself, and no doubt many others have rebuilt engines that initially looked as bad as yours. good luck!
__________________
Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit! |
12-06-2022, 02:57 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 782
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
That's about what a high mileage engine looked like, in the early '60's, when I became a mechanic. The worst one I had to clean, was 215 Chev. I was a good thing that I was young (18) and wanted to be a mechanic, real bad.
You can thank the old non-detergent oil for that mess. In those days, "high mileage" meant, 70K. You had a hard time getting rid of a 100K car!!! Many were just junked with that kind of mileage.
__________________
Frank '35 Ford Model 51 '48 Ford F3 '54 Ford Tudor Mainline |
12-06-2022, 10:45 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
It's surprising how an engine can be oily and rusty at the same time. Lots of condensation I suppose.
I would carefully inspect all around the pan rail for cracks before launching in and trying to dismantle the top end. I rebuilt a couple of engines that were pretty bad and you might enjoy some of the videos I made. Crusty Flatty: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...nhHBvLs12GnGQu Ol'59 Flatty: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...THMrri6-8w-LBI Lots of discussions here lately about removing valves. Lots of discussions about head studs too. Any questions just ask. Is the motor out of the car? Are you aware to avoid mounting the motor on a conventional engine stand via the half bellhousing? Mart. |
12-06-2022, 12:22 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Perry Mo.
Posts: 491
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I wish the last V12 Lincoln I did would have looked as good as your V8 Ford. Like Mart said pull the pan and check for cracks along the block where the pan gasket sits. Then you know if you need to go farther. So far what you've shown us is a basic rebuild with possibly a sleeve in one cylinder. Keep the pictures coming with your questions . We will be here. Tim
|
12-06-2022, 08:07 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,449
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
The car was likely used for mostly short trips where the engine didn't fully warm up to operating temperature. Engines used this way get sludged up bad if operated for long periods like that. The water in the cylinder could have been coolant. If it was then there is likely coolant in the pan too.
Climate of long term storage has a lot to do with condition of engine internals. A well stored car would have had less corrosion but could've still had some depending on temperature changes and relative humidity. I've seen a lot worse but the cylinder could be a candidate for resleeve. The cylinder walls on the old 221s are not all that thick. Whether it is a large bearing engine (LB) or an older poured babbitt engine will be the thing a person needs to know. Last edited by rotorwrench; 12-06-2022 at 08:13 PM. |
12-07-2022, 09:04 AM | #21 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Thanks a lot everyone for all the input.
@Mart We tried to pull the pan yesterday, but thought we knew better than the repair manual. We couldn't get the pan past those radius rod (?). We did raise the engine though. The manual tells to turn the crankshaft, but the engine is stuck. We'll give it another try tomorrow. and loosen those rods. I'll check out your videos, thanks. So the motor is still in the car. I was hoping to get a good impression on it's state before pulling the engine out. I did get a peek after lowering the pan a bit...same rusty wet look though. Didn't check the pan rail yet. Thanks for that mounting tip....we'll keep it in mind in case we pull the engine. The car's history isn't really clear. It spent the last 20 years in a barn in Pennsylvania. It was last registered in '66, also in Pennsylvania. It looks like they did indeed work on the engine before. Till now everything came off pretty easily. Even the rusted exhaust link pipe and the exhaust at the manifolds. We inspected the bottom of the car. Looks pretty solid, besides the obvious surface rust. The car seems complete as well. I did take a hit at the left front some point, braking the bumper bracket and bending the fender and grill a little bit. It caused the left headlight to be a bit closer to the cowling. The chassis seems straight though. Depending on the engine being an LB engine or not and salvageable or not I'll have to decide what route to take here. It won't be a full resoration in any case, but a technical restoration and just drive it. Slight interior improvement, rust treatment on the outside and go. Maybe juice brakes, depending on it's stopping abilities.[emoji16] Dennis Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-T720 met Tapatalk |
12-07-2022, 10:21 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Whatever happens, I can't imagine a scenario where the motor does not need to come out. I would advise just bite the bullet and pull it. (I'm a poet). If in doubt yank it out. (told you).
Mart. |
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
12-07-2022, 12:23 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,449
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I'd have to agree with Mart. The condition warrants work that is much better and easier done out of the car. As was mentioned, an engine stand adapter that connects the the exhaust ports is much better than worrying about cracking the rear bell area. The casting is not all that thick on the rear end there.
The one rusty piston is likely the sticking point. Just getting the valves out is a big job and they should come out to insure serviceability. If the engine was not so internally fowled and the cylinders were all still void of corrosion, things would be different. That one is just beyond that state. Everything needs to be cleaned & checked. Last edited by rotorwrench; 12-07-2022 at 12:31 PM. |
12-07-2022, 02:14 PM | #24 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Yeah, we'll probably pull the engine. I measured the bore btw, says 3.08". As far as this is accurate, the measuring caliper was a relatively cheap one.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-07-2022, 02:42 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
That's 17.5 thou over standard. Could be 15, could be 20 depending on how accurate the measuring method. Any marks on the good pistons?
standard bore is 3-1/16" |
12-07-2022, 04:13 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
12-07-2022, 04:21 PM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,449
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
It would 3 1/16" or 3.0625. If it was previouy overhauled with a bore job then the oversize should be on top of the pistons.
|
12-07-2022, 04:48 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Powell, TN
Posts: 2,509
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Its hard to tell from the pics but most of those engines had sleeves. The easiest way to work that bad cyl may be to break the piston out driving from below, worst case cutting the rod into, then -putting a sleeve in that cyl bored to match what you bore the other cyl's. As wore as the engine is I would suspect it will need boring all cyls.
|
12-07-2022, 06:25 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
|
12-07-2022, 07:43 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,449
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I think the tin can sleeves came later but it depends on which block it has. The 21-stud block doesn't have as much room for sleeves as the 24-stud blocks.
|
12-08-2022, 09:42 AM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Florida panhandle
Posts: 194
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Does it have water pump block off plates on the block just below the head mounted water pumps?
|
12-08-2022, 10:22 AM | #32 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
|
12-08-2022, 12:23 PM | #33 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Well, we didn't manage to get the oil pan off. The engine is stuck, so we couldn't turn the crankshaft to clear the pan inside. So, the unevitable is next....taking the engine out.
I cleaned a small piece of the oil pan rail, but didn't see any cracks (yet). I did get a peek inside though. Same rusty appearance. I was able to measure the distance between the most rear visible studs. If I'm correct, that's the rear main bearing? Measures around 3 1/4". So am I looking at an LB engine!?[emoji850] Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-08-2022, 01:18 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 1,394
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Regarding that 3.08 measurement.... It depends on how that was obtained. If he measured BELOW the ridge, it likely just indicates a worn cylinder, based on standard bore. If he measured the diameter ON the ridge, then the 'puzzle' indicated in the previous posts still applies. (Opinion) In any event... I see a lot of work, and a fixable engine. And, if an LB, in my opinion, I'd go for it. (I'm prejudiced, I have some good memories with an LB.)
|
12-10-2022, 10:53 AM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Corbett OR
Posts: 233
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Don't forget how hard it is to find rod bearings, and how expensive they are!
|
12-10-2022, 11:09 AM | #36 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oshkosh, Wi
Posts: 4,527
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
|
|
12-10-2022, 12:23 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,963
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Believe me, when I can 'start 'em in the field' and drive them away, that is my favorite kind of old truck adventure. I have pulled that off maybe six times in 50 years of picking up old fords. Those with mechanical brakes were extra fun because you actually could start driving them as is (if one happens to live on the back side of a rural island). BUT.... your engine is not a candidate for that particular brand of fun. They are sooo difficult to work in in the vehicle and sooo nice on a stand. Do yourself a favor and pull that bad tooth out. It will feel much better after that!
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
12-13-2022, 11:24 AM | #38 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Ok, working towards the inevitable...taking the engine out. We removed the grill and radiator as well as the passenger toe board and the trans cover plate. Next will be the shifter and clutch linkage.
Any tips/pointers for getting the engine and trans out? Where is the (approx.) center of gravity of the engine+trans? Might help in lifting... Thanks. Dennis Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-13-2022, 11:50 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Somewhere near here.
|
12-13-2022, 12:13 PM | #40 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
|
12-13-2022, 01:40 PM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlotte NC KiWi-L100 available here
Posts: 2,964
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Too late now but the grill can stay in.
|
12-13-2022, 01:41 PM | #42 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,781
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
|
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
12-13-2022, 02:00 PM | #43 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
|
12-13-2022, 02:03 PM | #44 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
|
12-13-2022, 02:28 PM | #45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 10,328
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Some of the valve train components are bound to be damaged on removal in an engine like this. The later (non-mushroom stem valves and related) parts from an 8BA type engine are easier to get, easier to work with, and easier to pay for (at least here in the states).
|
12-14-2022, 01:04 AM | #46 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-14-2022, 04:44 AM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Yes.
|
12-14-2022, 07:58 AM | #48 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Thanks. Trying to figure out which parts of the engine I should definately safe and which can/should be replaced.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-14-2022, 08:54 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Albion PA
Posts: 1,679
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Your doing good! That bad boy needs to come out! It looks like it will need LOTS of love!
Get a engine lifter hooked on to that where mart points and pick that engine out. Looking forward to your next steps! Good pictures by the way! Regards, Chris
__________________
1932 AAB Truck 1953 Ford Jubilee 2015 Ford F250 SuperCrew Lots of Allis tractors Some Cub Cadets |
12-14-2022, 09:22 AM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Don't rule out being able to source a replacement motor. There are French and German flatheads, all of which could be made to work in your car. Plus there were a lot of USA cars in Holland back in the day. Do you know anyone in Holland into hot rods? They might have leads on motors. I know a couple of people in Holland.
|
12-14-2022, 12:58 PM | #51 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 11
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Reposted in a new thread.
Last edited by AZ34; 12-14-2022 at 02:49 PM. |
12-14-2022, 02:38 PM | #52 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
Still moderately positive about the engine. Hoping to pull it tomorrow and check it out more. Especially the main bearings. Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
|
12-15-2022, 03:31 PM | #53 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Got the engine out. Went pretty ok. Wasn't sure about those 2 horizontal rods coming from the frame going through the sides of the bell housing. We pulled the engine forward and got it all clear.
Next will be finding the proper way to mount the engine on an engine stand. If anyone has some pictures of what they use, it would be appreciated. Not so nice was to find out the left front took a hit at some point. That crossmember/bar between the front wheels has a bend. [emoji19] I'll post some pics and questions in a new thread. Dennis I think the car looks a bit like a toothless grandma now.... Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
12-15-2022, 06:29 PM | #54 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: sw minnesota
Posts: 4,582
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
The side of the block where the exhaust ports are is a 45% angle. Just use a manifold for a bolt pattern, and cut a tube that fits your engine stand at 45% and weld it up. Note the front two bolts are bigger
|
01-02-2023, 11:04 AM | #55 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
We're working on a plate to mount the engine stand on the exhaust manifold port. Would a 5mm/1/5 inch plate be thick enough?
Dennis Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
01-02-2023, 02:25 PM | #56 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 782
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
6mm would be better but, I think 5mm will work fine.
__________________
Frank '35 Ford Model 51 '48 Ford F3 '54 Ford Tudor Mainline |
01-02-2023, 02:52 PM | #57 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
No You want at least 8mm.
|
01-02-2023, 03:44 PM | #58 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Ok, so I guess 2 of them together to be sure.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
01-02-2023, 03:51 PM | #59 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 1,394
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I don't 'speak-mm', so I converted from 3/8 and came up with something a little heavier that what Mart posted. So, as post 58 suggests, I'd go with the two. But, from my perspective, being old and lazy, I'd BUY a mount... previously discussed and posted here on the barn. (obviously, just opinion)
|
01-02-2023, 04:00 PM | #60 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
8mm is 5/16" and 3/8 is just a bit less than 10mm.
|
01-02-2023, 04:17 PM | #61 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
We'll weld some additional triangle shaped support brackets between the tube and the plate. Any other suggestions are welcome. Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
|
01-03-2023, 12:15 AM | #62 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,963
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
You are a quick study. That looks exactly right and you'll have that engine mounted in no time, and mounted the safe and correct way! Before long there WILL be a flathead guy in your neighborhood. You.
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
01-13-2023, 02:35 PM | #63 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Thought I'd post some of the small progress we made. We decided to work on the studs and valves first before mounting the engine in a stand. Much steadier like this. It does mean we haven't pulled the pan yet to verify if it is indeed an LB block, but it's surprise me if it isn't.
Since we'll install new valves, springs, etc., I handled them the hard way. The guides were so stuck that I couldn't get the horseshoe clips out, even if they moved. So I cut the springs, wriggled the lower clip out. Then removed the spring remains, lifted the valve and cut the valve stem just below the valve. Then I could hammer down the valve guide with a small tube. And I got most of the studs out, only 4 to go. The top ones seem the hardest. Took a lot of heating with an induction heater tool, Mystery oil, etc. And the 'offset type' stud remover tool. It's a bit hard for me to tell how much force I can apply with my torque wrench. Don't want to break a stud.... Easy does it I guess. There does seem to be a crack between a stud hole and a water hole.[emoji19] We'll have the block magnafluxed at some point. Any thought on those kind of cracks? To be continued. Dennis Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
01-13-2023, 03:13 PM | #64 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Those cracks are very common and not normally judged to be a problem. People joke that those cracks have Ford part numbers.
|
01-13-2023, 03:38 PM | #65 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 611
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
That is looking way better already and I'm hoping it all goes well.
|
01-13-2023, 04:11 PM | #66 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
|
01-13-2023, 04:11 PM | #67 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
|
01-13-2023, 05:17 PM | #68 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: SW WA
Posts: 640
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
|
|
01-14-2023, 11:01 AM | #69 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Florida panhandle
Posts: 194
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I have been collecting bearing sets as they come up cheap for about 30 years, I can see what I have for full floating. I have 2 early motors that are not fresh so after I have saved some for that no sense in hoarding the rest.
|
01-14-2023, 12:23 PM | #70 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Quote:
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
|
01-16-2023, 10:25 AM | #71 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Got all the studs out. In 1 piece![emoji817][emoji3060] Thanks to heating, Mystery oil, tapping, a $20,- stud remover tool and patience.
It probably helps that the engine was overhauled at some point way back in the days. So far the decks look ok by visual inspection. I got 14 valve assemblies completely out, 2 are limited by the position of the camshaft. Those will come later. Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
02-01-2023, 04:21 AM | #72 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
[emoji120][emoji322] It's an LB! [emoji16]
So finally we have the 221 mounted in an engine stand and were able to get 1 of the main bearing caps of. A bit expected, or at least hoped for, it turned out to have the insert bearing! I don't have any experience with these engines, but I'd say it all looks pretty decent so far. The bearings seems to be stock size. They have a 'Ford A' stamp and a 'D'. Anyone know what these stand for? Got one piston out so far. Seems to be stock size, it measures 3.06". The oil pump is stuck. Any suggestions how to get it out? Any other suggestions how to go from here are welcome as well. Thanks. Dennis Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-T720 met Tapatalk |
02-01-2023, 11:48 AM | #73 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Masterton, New Zealand
Posts: 3,837
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
steel pistons!
to remove the oil pump, after undoing the one bolt that holds it into place, use a big wrench on the body of the pump to twist it for sideways, this will break the bond that has formed and allow you to then lift the pump up and out
__________________
Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit! |
02-01-2023, 12:00 PM | #74 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,759
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
As Brian stated, a twist can get things moving. Remove the flywheel first so you have more elbow room. A clockwise twist will assist removal if the shaft is tight due to the helix on the gears. A good pipe wrench is useful for turning the pump. Be careful and only apply moderate force. You can break the pumps.
Mart. |
02-02-2023, 02:50 AM | #75 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 142
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I thought '36s were still babbitt pounders? Not many around who still do babbitt work.
|
02-02-2023, 03:18 AM | #76 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern France
Posts: 5,312
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Insert mains were introduced by Ford in '36,(mid year?).
|
02-12-2023, 02:38 PM | #77 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
We have most of the engine apart now. Almost time to have it thoroughly inspected and magnafluxed. We did find a small hole in 1 of the connecting rod journals. No idea if this can be fixed, our rebuilder will tell, but I'd appreciate any ideas here.
We're getting to the point (assuming the engine is rebuildable) where we have to figure out what to reuse and what to replace. Any advice is welcome here. The car is 36 Touring Sedan which most probably will stay as original as possible. No big exterior and interior upgrade, just drive it with the worn patina look. So we're thinking of keeping the engine basic, no big pimpin' here. Bit of a budget rebuild, as far as possible. The 221 had steel dome pistons. A quick search tells me those aren't the cheapest and not widely available. Aluminum good enough? The connecting rods....reuse if possible? Valves are shot...will be replaced. The non-mushroom type? Our rebuilder already suggested the adjustable tappets/lifters. Pros/cons? Water pumps, oil pump and fuel pump....(self) rebuild? I guess the ring gear is shot (see pic)? Thanks. Dennis Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-T720 met Tapatalk |
04-19-2024, 07:10 AM | #78 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Long time since the last update. The block has been decked and is ready to be honed .040 over. The crankshaft will soon be back from the grinder. .010 under on the mains and rod journals. The camshaft was too far gone, I got a good used one at mr. Alan Mest in LA, as well as loads of other parts. Bearings, .040 pistons and rings, gears, etc. The block looks surprisingly good given the inital impression.
I have an engine head question though. We took the heads to the rebuilder. We already noticed a difference between the 2 heads, chamber shape, depth of plug holes, general shape... They measured the volume of the chambers and indeed there's a difference in volume. I know these heads were used as replacement heads back in the days. Why use 2 different ones? The numbers are 68-6049B and 68-6050B which, acc. to the green bible, should be a matching pair. These would have different compression given the difference in chamber volume... Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
04-19-2024, 08:05 AM | #79 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,963
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Great to see you are still hard at it! While I cannot answer the question about your heads, I am confident that the chambers must match in volume. We are working side by side, but half a world away as I am also putting an engine together on a budget and re-using the parts that I can. Sometimes it's a bit of a gamble when installing a previously used part into a freshly machined block, but when we are smart about it we are getting an original ford part, and at no cost. I like to think we're doing a 'Kenny Rogers Rebuild'.
'And as every gearhead knows, the Secret to survivin' is knowin' what to throw away and knowin' what to keep.... And if somewhere down the highway, the gambler he breaks even, the best that he can hope for is that rust pit weren't too deep'....... You have done a great job so far and it will be a blast driving that old sled around looking kinda shabby with that little jewel under the 'bonnet'. GB
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
04-19-2024, 08:13 AM | #80 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Thanks. The rebuilder doesn't want to use these pair of heads cause of the difference in compression. They're very precise with stuff like that. Seems I'll be looking for a matching head...
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
04-19-2024, 08:23 AM | #81 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Perry Mo.
Posts: 491
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
As GB said the heads should match. It would and did run but not right or very well. Ask around here on the barn . Somebody should have a spare set they could part with I would think. Again nice work and keep us in the loop on your progress. Tim
|
04-19-2024, 08:27 AM | #82 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Perry Mo.
Posts: 491
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
If you go to the swap meet at the top of the page you will find the wanted section. post an add there. Tim
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
04-19-2024, 09:51 AM | #83 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,871
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
eWell, I've gone thru this and can't come up with any answer about this engine. I have to know what the future of this car will be?? Dailey driver----------------- restored to original. Ur just a putzer old car,
I like the latter, Fixing this engine will be quite expensive, You might consider replacing it, any engine up to 48 will bolt right in, 49/53 will with some putzing/ good luck. But your in the right place now. Gramps |
04-19-2024, 10:12 AM | #84 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Well, I think we passed the point of no return.🫣 We have all the parts already. Main bearings, rod bearings, another good used camshaft, crankshaft almost done machining, etc. I got most parts for a fair price and mainly without shipping costs. All costs are split 50-50 with my dad, so this is a nice father son project.
Maybe not the most logical way to go with this engine, since the car is patina'd 4 door Sedan, but we like to keep it stock. That's how it was parked end of the 60s, kinda nostalgic way to go. Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
04-19-2024, 10:45 AM | #85 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I’ve got the exact same mis matched heads on my lb 36 std bore steel piston motor. I ran that motor for 5-6 years and never could tell the difference. Of course I knew they looked different but it wasn’t till I removed the heads did I realize the chamber being different .
Gary |
04-21-2024, 01:28 AM | #86 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
One chamber measures 95cc, the other 82cc. One response to my questions on this issue is: "Right banks and left banks.. can confirm slightly different cambers OEM stock.. ... it's because of the way the engine has been cast .. Ford engineered it that way.." Any ideas here? Thanks. Dennis Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
04-21-2024, 06:14 AM | #87 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Its always best to have equal chamber cc but back in the day you got what was available .
If you weren’t so far away Id trade you either head you want . |
04-21-2024, 08:16 AM | #88 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Thanks, appreciate that.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
04-21-2024, 08:19 AM | #89 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlotte NC KiWi-L100 available here
Posts: 2,964
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Have you checked the combustion chamber total size with heads on engine? You may find they are close despite what you see on the bench.
|
04-21-2024, 11:52 AM | #90 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lancaster PA
Posts: 535
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I've collected 21 stud parts for quite a while trying to get one good block for my 36PU. I found a wide variety of heads of all descriptions. Water pump heads for domed pistons are not common. I think they were made by Ford to use on 37-38 engines with domed pistons to allow installation in 32-36 cars when using water pump block off plates on the block. I found one head that was clearly an aftermarket replacement head, it had a domed chamber. I saw other heads that seemed to also be aftermarket replacements, some resemble OE Ford on the outside, some don't. The chambers vary a lot in Ford heads. spark plug locations vary, the aftermarket heads vary even more. I suspect the aftermarket manufacturers sometimes cast Ford script on their heads, some have part numbers, some don't.
The Aluminum heads I've seen all were for flat top pistons, I've read here on the barn that assembly line 33-36 car engines all had aluminum heads, trucks had iron heads. All of the factory rebuilt engines I've encountered had Iron heads, so perhaps the new iron heads were a routine item to install on rebuilts and were cast for that purpose. My 36 had a Ford rebuilt engine in it, it had 1932 iron heads with 7/8" spark plugs on it. My guess is that they just paired up 2 similar heads and stuck them on as the engines went down the rebuilder line. With you being located in The Netherlands my data might have no bearing on your situation, the OEM engines may have varied a lot from USA production. I've seen enough identical rights and lefts that I don't think the different size chambers you have are normal. My direction if I were in your shoes would be to find a matching pair of heads or to find a match to your 82cc head. The average price for iron 21 stud waterpump heads here in the US has been about $25 If you are forced to use the heads you have, the 13cc difference might be just enough to make it idle a little roughly but I wouldn't bet a lot on that happening. |
04-21-2024, 12:33 PM | #91 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
Thanks for the input! I do visit the US on a regular basis, so it shouldnt be too hard to source one. Preferable the smaller chamber size indeed.
What confuses me so far is that some claim a difference in chamber volume is 'correct'. I might have to check it with the heads on the engine.... Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk |
04-21-2024, 04:01 PM | #92 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lake worth Florida
Posts: 1,108
|
Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
I do not think having 2 different chamber volumes is ever correct . It’ll work but not correct. Especially when rebuilding a motor and you have a chance to correct it .
|
|
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|