Just Curious...

[RcT]

Take a look at the posts today. A lot of them have to do with different heads, overdrives, 4-speed trannies, etc. At what point does the tone change here and the responses refer the person to the Hot Rod forum? Is a Model A Ford with 16" wheels, radial tires, overdrives, downdraft dual carbs, modified distributor, modern points, juice brakes, 12 volt systems, etc., are they considered to be "legal" for this forum? I do not intend to be critical or to start something here, but who makes this determination and at what point are you asked to go elsewhere?

Richard Tatoyan

[1931 flamingo]

I don't think "anyone" asks someone else to leave. They may get a "suggestion" to try another site or they may not receive an answer to their post. Pretty friendly group here. JMO
Paul in CT

[zzlegend]

Excellant question Richard. I to would like to hear some replies. Mark.

[ford1]

the problem starts when you start putting modern engines in the car (chevy v/8's) thats when you will be told you are in the wrong forum, this is not a concours form with 400 points cars, just a bunch of guys building and preserving these cars for our enjoyment, and saftey, so i believe a few modificatons are allowed

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by RcT

Take a look at the posts today. A lot of them have to do with different heads, overdrives, 4-speed trannies, etc. At what point does the tone change here and the responses refer the person to the Hot Rod forum? Is a Model A Ford with 16" wheels, radial tires, overdrives, downdraft dual carbs, modified distributor, modern points, juice brakes, 12 volt systems, etc., are they considered to be "legal" for this forum? I do not intend to be critical or to start something here, but who makes this determination and at what point are you asked to go elsewhere?

Richard Tatoyan

Richard, I think several above have answered your question quite eloquently so please allow me to ask you a similar question or two (--or three).

* What is the difference between a Restored Model A, --and a Hot Rod or Custom Model A?

* If a Model A has those items that you mentioned above, in your mind is it classified as a "Restored" vehicle or as a Modified vehicle??

* In your own words, if someone were to ask you what do you feel the definition of 'Restored' is, what would you say???

.

One other thing, ...you asked who makes the determination and maybe you were wanting more of a specific answer? Ultimately it is probably the site owner Ryan and his moderators. Early on, Ryan said "We will stay focused on restoration over here. Hot rods and customs are for the hamb."

Do I have an opinion on which is which regarding Restoration vs. Rodding? Yes, but that probably doesn't matter. Ironically, the National Street Rod Ass'n states on their site what they consider is a Rod, and most collector car insurance companies ask the question whether the vehicle has been modified AND whether the engine horsepower has been changed/increased. Knowing how they decide whether it will be classified as a Rod or a Restored car would be interesting to know but I tend to think it has much to do with visual appearances. Modifications such as a stock-appearing high-compression head, a Mitchell synchro transmission, a high-speed rear end gear ratio, etc. are mods they will likely accept as "Restored". Vehicles with 16" wheels, radialtires, 5 speed transmissions, a finned aluminum head, dual downdraft carburetors, etc. probably doesn't meet their criteria as "Restored". I would also venture a strong possibility they have many vehicles insured as a Restored car that probably wouldn't be insured that way if the insurance company actually got to physically inspect the vehicle prior to issuing their policy.

[ford1]

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well stated Brent, very well stated

[Jim Brierley]

The HAMB is pretty far out for most that post on this Board. At today's national Model A Meets you see many "drivers". Those that drive great distances, and many do, they need an overdrive which requires a little more power, therefore high compression heads, different carb, etc. I am a little more far-out than most but still enjoy this Board and like to reply when I can help.

[Bob Johnson]

The term "Restored" with respect to a Model A has different meaning for everyone. First off one has to define what the car was restored to. For some it refers to the condition it was when it left the factory. For others it is the condition it was when it left the floor room. It could also be the way it was when it was first made into a hot rod in the 40's, 50's or 60's.

I consider a "restored" Model A one where the person restoring it did the best they could to get it back to the condition it was when it was new. Most of us do not have what I would call Restored Model As.

What most of us have is what I would call "Original Type" Model As as apposed to "Hot Rods". Everyone has different definitions of those two types of car. I think the main item that determine if a car is a Hot Rod is the engine. A 350 Chevy with a blower is a Hot Rod in most peoples opinion. But what about a Model B engine? Maybe, maybe not. As for the rest of the car I think that anything done to a Model A that is not easily reversible moves my opinion closer to the Hot Rod classification. Examples would be boxed frame or chopped body. The bottom line is that most people know a Model A Hot Rod when they see one. But everyone's criteria is different.

Bob

[Brentwood Bob]

The local MAFCA Club down you way have mild to strongly altered model As. The topics discussed on this forum seem to fit the vehicles they own and drive. When you consider the modifications beyond that, ie., chev blocks, body mods, you probably loose the direction followed here and would be better served on HAMB. And I think you would not be welcome at the local club. Bob

[Charlie Stephens]

Maybe a good test is would you show up with and brag about your modification at a MARC or MAFCA local chapter club meeting? Would they ask you to come back? Are your mods acceptable in the "touring class" of the national clubs? I don't tell someone to go H but have suggested on a positive note that they would have better luck with their SBC question on HAMB.

Charlie Stephens

[Logan]

In my point of view, a restored model a, is anything that falls in the different classes of judging
-finepoint class- completely stock, restored to original
-Touring class- kind of like fine point, but mostly cars that more or less look original but it isnt as detailed of judging.
-Modified class- cars that are allowed to have heavy modifications like ohv heads, overdrives, downdraft carbs, electronic ignitions, juice brakes, etc.


Now not everyone will agree with me on this, but I pretty much still beleive a "restored" model a is a model a until someone does completely different engine swap, or starts changing the body

[RcT]

I knew this would become a "Touchy" question, and I really do not have any issues with what somebody wants to do with their own car. I probably should have phrased my question a bit more diplomatically, but in my own personal opinion, (which really doesn't amount to a hill of beans) a Model A Ford is pretty much as it came from the dealer to the customer, from 1928 to 1931. I do realize not are issues are black and white, and who really cares?... but, all the questions on this site about the modifications done to cars; that's what I was curious about. I don't care what points, head, carb, tranny whatever you want to run on your car, but what I am reading here is that it's okay to put a F-150 tranny in, or Volvo overdrive, Mitchell, Brumfield, or any other such thing, but one crosses the line when they put a Chevy engine in a Model A.

My question is how certain modifications are deemed acceptable and some not, and how that decision is made.

I don't intend to ruffle feathers and start some ugly posts here, I just was curious as to how the modifications are "accepted" as okay.

This place is fine as it is; I have no complaints. I enjoy reading all the posts and questions and appreciate the civil attitude shown on this site.

[CarlG]

Mine is not a "Stock" Model A. My goodness, it has a RH tail light, seat belts, turn signals, etc......

[flatheadA]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

......The Model A Ford Club of America, Inc. is a California non-profit corporation and a national historical society dedicated to the RESTORATION AND PRESERVATION OF MODEL A FORD VEHICLES AS MANUFACTURED FROM 1928 THROUGH 1931. As taken from the mission statement of MAFCA.

That pretty well sums it up. No need to 'alter' or 'change' the original perception as laid out by the Club founders. I'm sure they were faced with this question back in 1957.

This has been hashed out here time and again ad naseum.

I don't recall ever seeing or reading about a new Model A leaving on a dealer drive-away equipped w/ all of the doo-dads people seem to want to cobble the car up with like Mitchell overdrives, down draft carburetors, F-150 transmissions etc. etc. etc. I wouldn't walk across the street to see a street rod. I actually loath them. Same as a Model A painted up in goofy colors and made to look like some kind of a clown car.

Go to the H.A.M.B. and hang out there. The 'people' on that forum (if you want to call them that) are very nasty and rude. Let's keep that rif-raf off of Fordbarn, please.

Jeff,
I hope this doesn't make you nauseous,but, I have to disagree with you.
Don't get me wrong,I enjoy looking at a finely restored Model A,I have friends who own some of these cars,high end trailer queens to bone stock barn finds and everything in between.
Those that have the high end cars are great to talk to about info to restore a car to near perfection.Then there are those who like to modify there cars to suit there wishes i.e. F-150 trany.I know a guy that builds the flanges to make those trany's bolt up,he can't keep up with the orders.Then there are the guys that get lucky and find an A that is all original and don't do anything but get them road worthy and safe to drive and leave it at that.
And as far as the hamb guys (you know ,the rude and nasty ones ,the rif-faf as you put it)I happen to be one of those,and personally I take offense,I don't think you would like my A,it's a hot rod ,flathead engine, 39 drive line,small tires up front, big in the back what the rif-raf call a post war tradition hot rod.I spent a lot of time ,turning junk from around my area and other parts of the country to build this car,parts some of the model A snobs,(sorry about the s word I mean PEOPLE)threw out as being unusable or unsuitable for there restoration(note:no cars or parts were abused or injured in the process). I take pride in the fact that I got these parts, saved them from the crusher ,and turned them into something that some PEOPLE admire.
And as far as keeping the so called rif-raf out of the barn,you may want to hold that thought,there are a lot of PEOPLE here that enjoy modifications to enhance the performance or driveability of there cars.
I apologize ,I don't mean to rant and rave I'm usually a easy going type,you know,I get along with everybody,I guess somebody just pushed a wrong button.I hope I did not step on anybodies toes.

[Tinker]

Ya, I'm one of those inbetweeners too. My Model A body is altered some, but the running gear is all 28-29 right down to the brakes, a 30s-40s gow. I feel like I'm too "ford original" for the main hamb and don't see alot of posts I can add too. And not enough for the barn sometimes. :]' So I read a lot of what is going on. And try and let it sink in.

I try not to bring up anything here that isn't related to original ford questions. I have suggested to new barners that post very off topic projects that they might enjoy the hamb better and receive better information on their project.

As far as rif-raf, I've been known to have an opinion (or joke around) sometimes. I've been slammed/ribbed on the hamb (and I still post) and we've even joked at ourselves here! It happens, it's just life.

[Kahuna]

I don't have a Model A. I DO have a 32 Tudor sedan that was originally a model B. I just recently got it registered and licensed, and, of course, insured. I went with Grundy Insurance. Before commiting to them, however, I asked some pointed questions re stock vs modified (my car is NOT stock). I mentioned that I have hydraulic brakes, a flathead engine, seat belts, turn signals, etc. Their response was these are generally considered "safety issues", and do not fall into the modified catagory. Biggest concern to them was did it have an engine other than a Ford flathead engine.
Jim

[Vanspeed]

My 1929 coupe is running 16 inch wire wheels, a 39 trans and a reversed eye front spring but I still consider it a model a. A local model a club has two guys running 35 ford wire wheels on their fully restored cars because they like the ride and they fell it looks better. I agree that chopped, flathead powered cars shouldn't be here but over on the hamb (I'm a member there also) but I think my car deserves a spot here too. It is still model a powered, mechanical brakes, 6 volt, etc. I think some people on here are way overboard when it comes to stock model a's. I get alot more info here than on the hamb when I need a "stock" model a question answered. If a car has add on's that can be found in Snyders catalog or Berts I think it belongs here. All we are trying to do is make the cars drive better and handle better than they did in the late 20's/early 30's. I like both stock model a's and I like hot rods. I will walk across the street to check out either one.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

......The Model A Ford Club of America, Inc. is a California non-profit corporation and a national historical society dedicated to the RESTORATION AND PRESERVATION OF MODEL A FORD VEHICLES AS MANUFACTURED FROM 1928 THROUGH 1931. As taken from the mission statement of MAFCA.

That pretty well sums it up. No need to 'alter' or 'change' the original perception as laid out by the Club founders. I'm sure they were faced with this question back in 1957.

This has been hashed out here time and again ad naseum.

I don't recall ever seeing or reading about a new Model A leaving on a dealer drive-away equipped w/ all of the doo-dads people seem to want to cobble the car up with like Mitchell overdrives, down draft carburetors, F-150 transmissions etc. etc. etc. I wouldn't walk across the street to see a street rod. I actually loath them. Same as a Model A painted up in goofy colors and made to look like some kind of a clown car.

Go to the H.A.M.B. and hang out there. The 'people' on that forum (if you want to call them that) are very nasty and rude. Let's keep that rif-raf off of Fordbarn, please.

Jeff,

If you want to quote the MAFCA stand I suggest you read their "Car (Vehicle) Judging Procedure Manual" (see below from their web site mafca.com). This is the criteria I would like to see used to decide what is appropriate to post here. I must agree with you that the people are much nicer on Fordbarn.

Charlie Stephens

TOURING RED RIBBON
A regularly driven Model A, which has been restored and LIMITED changes for driving comfort, convenience and safety. Vehicles in the touring class must be restored and be judged as defined in the Model A Judging Standards Restoration Guide. Vehicles that enter this class may include any one or all of the following non-original listed s and shall receive no more than 50% of the points allotted ­for the individual component in it's respective area. Convenience and safety items, (turn indicators, seat belts, gauges, fuses and radios, etc.) will receive no point deduction­s. Touring class may include any or all of the following Model A items:
1. Overdrives (torque tube type)
2. Fan and hub (belt driven)
3. Float-a-motor engine mounts
4. Carburetor (updraft only)
5. Electrical/Ignition System
· Halogen or sealed beam headlights behind Model A lenses.
· I2-volt conversion and/or an alternator


6. Steering box with original style column
7. Rubber valve stems
8. Manifold heaters

MODIFIED GREEN RIBBON
A vehicle that has received more extensive modifications than those in the touring class. Acceptable modifications may include any or all of the items as listed in the touring class definition and in addition to any or all of the modifications listed below:
1. A or B Engine block
2. Era transmission (through 1939)
3. Hydraulic brakes (through 1948)
4. Wheels and tires must be appropriate for the 1928­-1935 era and may be wire, wood spoked, disc and "jumbo".
5. Modified steering systems
6. Oil, fuel and/or air filters
7. Performance ignition/distributor system.
8. All non-stock heads (finned, aluminum, overhead)
9. Pressurized cooling system
10. Paint color must be of a Model A 28-31 colors but need not conform to original factory combinations for the body style. No metallics. Splash aprons and fenders must be painted black. Speedsters colors may vary due to era advertising requirements.
11. Upholstery must remain original style seats for any appropriate body style. Era type material must be used.
12. Intake and exhaust manifold (up draft or down draft for a single or multi carburetors)
13. Shocks may be hydraulic or friction type only, no tube type.
14. Model A body style cannot be chopped or channeled. Era type open wheeled speedsters are acceptable. Basic chassis shall remain Model A.
15. All body parts shall be metal with no fiberglass com­ponents.
16. Era transmissions/rear axles (through 1939). No automatic transmissions.
17. Era radiators acceptable. No electric fans.

GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR MODIFIED CLASS

1. The engine must be model A or B. Only speed equip­ment applicable to the Model A era is acceptable.

2. Replica cars will not be recognized in this class.

3. A separate 400 point judging sheet will be used for the modified class.

4. Model A tools will not be required for modified class.

5. Vehicles in the modified class must pass the safety & start and idle as part of the scoring process.

[Logan]

I think that you will also find that maybe 20% of the people on this website have completely stock cars. And even then some are hiding mods they have installed. I would like to say that touring in a stock model a would be safe, but in reality its not. Yes people do it, but if you live in a metropolitan area like i do, you cant even drive 10 miles without having to get on some type of roadway that makes the speed limit +60mph (sometimes even 75mph in texas). So to keep up with modern traffic, we have to modify the A's to keep them safe for driving long distances.

My grandpa was the biggest purist you would have ever met in the 70's and 80's. He didn't modify a single thing, and wouldnt drive over 40. Then when he retired, he started driving more and more, and realized he was gonna get his @ss ran over if he kept driving slow. So within 2 years he installed an overdrive, juice brakes, blinkers, alternator, and 2 years ago he added electronic ignition, seat belts, and a weber carb. All this allowed him to drive as fast as he felt needed, and he felt safer when driving.

Sorry for the long explanation, but the reality is, model a's were a great car when it rolled off the assembly line, and still is. But for the people doing heavy touring, most feel its safer to modify the cars to drive faster so they can keep up with modern traffic. Does this mean they shouldnt be allowed on this site because of this? My opinion is that it shouldnt matter. We're all here because we love the car and love helping each other out when needed.

[Steve Wastler]

I am a purist, my heart lies with a totally stock model A as close to Henry produced as possible. That being said, they are all A's so I like them. As for mods, I like to read up on them, amd you can learn alot hearing from others about mods. I enjoy reading Model a times, and the mods they cover. I like street rods, but not here, so keep the small blocks, hemi's, four bars and quickchange rears somewhere else. My 2 cents