Why is it jumping out of second?!

[Talkwrench]

Ive gotta say Im not a fan of these 39 toploaders... Is there anything in the shift tower that could make this problem ?

[TonyM]

Mine jumped out of second until I had it rebuilt. Now no jumping out of second.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, If your tranny jumps out of second you are a member of a large but not exclusive club. You can get out of the club by rebuilding the unit. Legendary problem, not a cheap fix but I have been there, and since the change over, not an issue even once! My tranny man is Charlie Schwindler from the state of New York. He's also done the rear, and a few other bits hanging on my reliable driver.

[Lawrie]

Junk that Rob ,send it to me,
you should be able to get it right,they are after all quite a simple box,non of mine do it,even the 99a engine.
lawrie

[Talkwrench]

I blame you Lawrie !! Every time I speak to you saying everythings good then shortly afterwards things happen ..you jinx me lol !!
I cant understand it most of the parts in their are new..yes your right they are quite simple, I don't get it? I was hoping it may have something to do with those ball bearings and the indents , but thinking about it , might be clutching at straws..

[Lawrie]

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End float on 2nd gear,worn syncro,s ,I have never had mine jump out of gear,once I put the wrong mainshaft syncro hub combo and 2nd gear wore into the splines,the gear lever would move back and forwards about 2 inches on and off the gas,but it never jumped out of gear,
Take some pics and mail me,
I,m off away for the weekend in the 33 and caravan to Brisbane for a club swap meet.
Lawrie

[Talkwrench]

All that stuff is new Lawrie.. if anything I believe most of everything was on the 'tight' side when I assembled.. When I rebuilt it the first time no probs, well till the cluster bearing disintegrated a few months later..[never found it why] I simply inspected everything - replaced what was needed and put it back the way it was , now several months later jumping out of second uggh? No way it should be happening ..

[35ragtop]

Hi Fellas,
there was a thread on here ,last year I think, about same problem. The poster said to check the thickness of your replacement bearing retaining clip. Any movement in the slot ( clip in bearing groove), would allow the bearing to move slightly forward. This encouraged the slip out of gear problem.
Sorry cant remember who posted it.

See you over the weekend Lawrie
Dave

[36 ford]

I spoke with Dick Spadaro a few years back about my 39 jumping out of 2nd gear. He said the shifting forks were likely bent from the force of shifting in to 2nd gear for many years and could be straightened by removing the top cover while the trans is still in the car. I wonder if anyone has attempted this fix.

Phil

[Seth Swoboda]

It can be caused by the detents in the shift tower and you probably need a rebuild with a brass spacer washer in front of second gear between the gear and the brass blocker ring. Also new blocker rings and a snap ring kit. I just recently made this repair on a '39 transmission and my problems were solved. Shifts like a new transmission now. You can find all the information and parts you will need at vanpeltsales.com. When you have this problem fixed you will love this transmission, I promise.

PS you can make this repair yourself. I have done it. You will find that it is not all that difficult.

[4t8v8]

Been doing flatheads and these transmissions for 60 years. There is no way to take the main shaft slack out of these transmissions except for spacer washers which wear in time and the problem returns. Spent a lot of money rebuilding them just to have the problem eventually return. Finally installed a T5 in my F1 10 years ago. Oh, how sweet it is!

[rotorwrench]

The main shaft and associated bearings, the synchronizer blocker & taper fits, and most important, the countershaft cluster end play and bearing condition all can have an effect on this problem along with just plain worn out gears. Most commonly it is extreme wear with the thrust washers or the case boss there at the back of the counter shaft where it contact the case. This stuff has to be renewed every now and then to keep things working correctly. The shifter top can also wear to the point it no longer shifts nice and crisp with good detents. There are parts available to repair this but it is not always a cause for a 2nd gear unententional release or pop out. The shift forks can get worn or bent too but that is usually from abuse or very long term wear.

If you want it to shift and last like a new car then go and buy a new car. Old Fords are old technology and require more maintenance than newer cars. A person also needs experience to know how far the old parts will go before they have to be replaced. Mac VanPelt and other rebuilders know this stuff but most other folks don't since it really isn't covered well by the OEM manuals. Mac's manual is the best yet.

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The main shaft and associated bearings, the synchronizer blocker & taper fits, and most important, the countershaft cluster end play and bearing condition all can have an effect on this problem along with just plain worn out gears. Most commonly it is extreme wear with the thrust washers or the case boss there at the back of the counter shaft where it contact the case. This stuff has to be renewed every now and then to keep things working correctly. The shifter top can also wear to the point it no longer shifts nice and crisp with good detents. There are parts available to repair this but it is not always a cause for a 2nd gear unententional release or pop out. The shift forks can get worn or bent too but that is usually from abuse or very long term wear.

If you want it to shift and last like a new car then go and buy a new car. Old Fords are old technology and require more maintenance than newer cars. A person also needs experience to know how far the old parts will go before they have to be replaced. Mac VanPelt and other rebuilders know this stuff but most other folks don't since it really isn't covered well by the OEM manuals. Mac's manual is the best yet.

Well said. Contact Mac VanPelt you will not regret it!

[Deuce Man]

When I was a kid I had a 39 ford sedan, I broke a few transmissions now and then. There was a truck garage in town, the owner ran a 37 ford modified with a 389 pontiac for power thru a 39 trans, he had a big long bench with at least a dozen rebuilt top shifters on it. I would walk in carrying my broken trans and say "Hey Axel, I broke another one!". He would say " leave it on the floor and pick a new one out, I would pay him a paltry sum by todays atandards and go back home to put my car back together. These transmissions were there ready to put his modified back in racing trim, when needed. Did I mention that he had a big old barn door spring attached to his dashboard. I asked him once what that spring was for? He said, "that is to keep her in second" good memories, Rich

[Karl Wolf]

I know that the correct solution is to tighten up the clearances in the trans...
My solution has been to increase the spring in the detent (behind the balls in the lid), a lot stronger, and as many coils as will fit...
Second gear holds well and there is no discernible increase in the effort to shift.

Karl

[JAKEFORD]

Worn out synchronizers!

[Talkwrench]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

It can be caused by the detents in the shift tower and you probably need a rebuild with a brass spacer washer in front of second gear between the gear and the brass blocker ring. Also new blocker rings and a snap ring kit. I just recently made this repair on a '39 transmission and my problems were solved. Shifts like a new transmission now. You can find all the information and parts you will need at vanpeltsales.com. When you have this problem fixed you will love this transmission, I promise.

PS you can make this repair yourself. I have done it. You will find that it is not all that difficult.

Ive done all of this Seth..

The detents in the tower are in great condition, however the ball bearings look a little worn, I went to replace them last time with new ones and they locked the shifter up, I had to pull it all apart to remove them , I measured them at .003 larger than the bearings I had. I questioned this with the supplier, and the ones sent to me were in fact NOS , so its got me stumped..? The second / third fork has a lot of sideways movement [floppy] I thought that could be normal, but the only thing that can cause it would be that the ball bearing is loose??

[dude]

Too much end play..

[Seth Swoboda]

Maybe your transmission case is worn/stretched beyond use? Just throwing out an idea.

[George/Maine]

I think this is only a floor shift problem. I/m converting my 47 to a floor shift.
The case is a 50 pu. I'm reinstalling it and was checking my 2 nd gear.
I put the top back on and put it in 2nd, put screws for location.
The fork 3" it pushes the sleeve just about to 2nd gear. So looks ok.
The 3" ford measures .340 if this is worn could be problem wear, the lever check for wear on stick that pushs to 2nd. Should be round no flat spots . All wear adds up.

[svm99]

The 2nd/3rd rail or the bore of the shift fork may be worn, I've seen cases of both.
Paul J.

[Talkwrench]

Well I drained the oil just to see and I was thankful that I found no big chunks this time ..but there seems to be a lot of bronze fleck through the oil, I swirled it with my finger then took the shot , also took a shot of the largest piece I found, there was not a lot like this. This is the first oil change after a few months of the rebuild.

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

I think this is only a floor shift problem. ...

Happened in my column shifter trans.

I was having some other problems on a trans that had been rebuilt. It would occasionally pop out of 2nd on sudden lift-off of the gas from high RPM's. To address the other problems, I replaced the blocker rings and the "inserts" and springs. I checked the fit of the inserts carefully and found that some of them would hang up a bit, sliding thru the synchro hub and blockers. I carefully smoothed the corners of the inserts until they slid thru without hanging. No problems since.

[koates]

Talkwrench, What oil are you using in your trans ? If you use an oil rated above API GL-4, eg API GL-5 or API GL-6 then they will have a destroying effect on your bronze components as you have shown. I use PENRITE MILD EP GEAROIL SAE IIO. Or use PENRITE TRANSOIL SAE 140. That is their recommendation for the early ford V8 transmissions. Regards, Kevin.

[TonyM]

Those synchro rings are brass, not bronze. If you are finding flecks of it in your trans oil, then your yellow metal is being destroyed. The wrong trans oil will destroy the brass sycnhro rings.

[Talkwrench]

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I was waiting for it.. I use penrite mild EP , So should be nothing wrong there..?

[Charlie ny]

T.W.,
All good advice here....end play and incorrectly fitted sync rings can cause
the jump out. 2nd gear has a thin wall bushing which is always worn way oversize
and this is also, in my opinion, a cause of jump out. It's best to make sure the shaft
is straight and round on the 2nd gear end then rebush 2nd gear gear for a .0015
running fit on the shaft. It's useless to install a NOS 2nd gear with a factory sized
bushing and expect it to do it's job when installed on a worn shaft.
When you think about it 2nd is ALWAYS spinning and the output shaft is always turning in it except when the trans is in second gear, billions of revs.
It appears as though your syncro rings are dragging given the yellow gear
oil. Be sure to check the 3 slots the keys register in.....the dimension from the tooth side of the ring to the bottom of the slot must be .302 + or - .002. It's good to check the fit of the rings on the input shaft/gear and 2nd gear. The gap between the tooth
faces should be about .030.
Best of luck..........next time I'm down your way the shrimp and beer are on
me !
Charlie ny

[Talkwrench]

Prawns Charlie prawns.!
I guess in time we'll see what happens. All of the parts you are referring to were new and after having to rebuild the box a few months back the synchro rings etc all looked fine and new as they should be from the previous build I did a few months before that . I do have an early synchro hub ( with the holes for the bearings) but with later style sliders, I don't think this makes any difference, it was supplied to me that way. But in saying that I have never been totally happy with the way it shifts , I had been hoping it would get better with time, it's really just the shift from 3 rd to 2nd that ever worried me.. Maybe it is the oil, but it shouldn't be.. I wouldn't be suprised if the thrust washers are being chewed too.. Just wondering if it's Chinese stuff again ?

[George/Maine]

When down shifting should double clutch ,when you push into 2nd you push if any movement away from sleeve.
Dropping out of 2nd gear most times its when you let off gas.
2nd gear is cut on angle under power, pushes forward if you have and backward and forward movement it pulls out of sleeve. Make sure the ujoint bolt is tight.

[CC33]

For my '33 the problem was my syncro and shift forks were well worn. Mac V took care of my woes and the car shifted like new.