Ignition- Electronic vs High Energy ????

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Working my typical sat shift trying to get caught up and stopped for lunch.
There seems to be some confusion regarding electronic ignition versus high energy ignition systems , thought i might clear it up just a bit ???

1-Contact point controlled ignition: Uses a set ( one or two) contacts to close and open allowing the ignition coil to ground ( saturate) the winding allowing coil build up required to fire the air fuel mixture at the spark plug.
Usually this current flow will be 3-4 amps and ignition occurs when the points open allowing the magnetic field to collapse across the secoundary coil windings.
This spark is dependant of compression, engine load and circuit resistance...
a interesting point is that if the engine idled at 5,000 volts with the stock coil, the addition of a hotter coil would still idle at 5,000 volts. The ignition will only do what is needed....
Usually the oem manufacture will tailor this system for long life and good service from all components..

2-Electronic Ignition- In its base form changes nothing other than takes away the maintance of the adjusting and replacing the contact points. May not raise the coil voltage , just makes it a cleaner circuit. This was mandated by federal government as a emission control certifying the tune of a vehicle for 50,000 miles in the early 70s...

3-High Energy Ignition ( GMs term HEI)- Raises the output levels of the ignition by changing the control module, secondary wires and the ignition coil. (and to the delight of the federal government raises the service intervals and there for cleaner emissions for longer mileage.) It extended the mileage i can drive my car and not do any thing to it with a coil output of 50-60,000 volts. This additional voltage also was extremely hard on all circuit parts.

Then the discussion centers around the need and the word " WHY".

High compression and high rpm may provide this need for another ignition system. However most of our flatheads are low rpm and low compression and may not have this need..

Ex: My 2012 GMC Truck has a coil per cylinder, 420 HP and direct gasoline fuel injection and idles at 2,000 volts !!!

[Rich/Alabama]

Jim,
What are your thoughts regarding adding a CD box like an MSD6 to an otherwise stock ignition? I have read that it would extend the life of the points a lot.

Rich

[RandyZ]

I've been running a MSD 6A which is triggered by the points, for years now. works great. Nice thing is if the CD box was to ever pack it up, I can rewire things in about 10 min. and go back to the old way of firing things. Just need a ballast resister and a couple of wires. Best of both worlds. Nice hot spark most of the time, with the option to get home.

[Tom Walker]

Hi Randy
Can you explain in simple terms how your system is wired in, and exactly what we would need to buy to set it up?

Thanks, Tom.

[FlatheadTed]

I run a single set of points through Henrys 6volt 2.1/2 volt resistor at idol about a 8mm spark of the wire .cross up and by pass the resistor it produces about a 12mm spark . no problem .The problem with points ING is corrosion when the car is parked up or stored in damp climates ,this you would also get when using the MSD box .Ted

[JWL]

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Like RandyZ I have been using the 6A box for many years with the stock, (crab,) distributor. With the addition of a decent coil, the sparkplug gap can be spread to the extreme of eliminating the ground strap. However, the quality of the crab cap is called into question with plug gaps over about .035.

The box includes instructions for wiring into a variety of different ignition systems.

[Blownflatheaddeuce]

On my blown 8BA I run a Mallory dual point (reset the curve and got rid of the SBC like curve) with the SEC point removed and use the PRIMARY point to trigger the box.

10 years and still going, runs like a champ

[RandyZ]

A MSD can use either an inductive pick up or get triggered by a single wire connected to the points. It also has two wires that connects to the coil to fire it.
If you lose the MSD box ( mine is 22years old ) disconnect the 3 wires. run a short wire from the dist. to the negative terminal of the coil. connect the positive terminal to ballast resister. the other end of the ballast resister I have an alligator terminal that I clip to the positive terminal of the battery.
Bob is your uncle, and you have the old fashion ignition system to get you home. Interesting enough the timing does not change when you switch from one style to the other.
I have the wires, ballast resister and small crescent wrench tucked away in the glove box, in case I ever need it.
The other nice thing about this set up, is that the points last forever.
If I had the early style distributor where the points are a bear to get at, I would seriously consider this set up.
Yes I know this is not original and Uncle Henry didn't sell them this way, but neither is the 5 speed od tranny.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by Rich/Alabama

Jim,
What are your thoughts regarding adding a CD box like an MSD6 to an otherwise stock ignition? I have read that it would extend the life of the points a lot.

Rich

Any add on that you could use will add to the current draw in the system.
I do like the MSD CDI box but dont really see the need on a flathead application.
Small block chevrolet at 12 to one compression running 7-9,000 rpm its needed ....

[FlatheadTed]

If point burning is a problem then lower your voltage to the points this is what Henry did ,once you add 12volt you will increase burning over the original system but add a ballast will minimise this .The MSD box will give you low voltage at the points .The problem with Coil iNG is that it produces a stronger spark at low RPM when you don't need it as the points stay closed for longer , rather than the other way around like a magneto were the faster you spin it the more spark is produced .As the RPM increases on point ING the more chance you have of reduce efficiency as it try's to feed all eight plugs .The charge up time on the coil is lower this is why HF had the over lapping points design .I like the single point idea though for speeds under 70MPH because you don't need a rocket scientist to set them .The MSD box is good if you like to tinker, full electronic would be better .. Ted

[Rich/Alabama]

I am more interested in points longevity & reliability than anything else. There's nothing more aggravating to me than working on my car when I would really rather (or need to) be driving it. Based on the feedback, I'm going to give the MSD a try. If it doesn't work I can always easily remove it. Thanks to all for your input,

Rich

[tubman]

I don't get all of this hype over HEI, MSD-boxes, etc., etc., etc. When I got my '51 in '87 I did a complete tune-up; points, condenser, plugs, cap, and rotor. Didn't do the wires; they were solid core and looked fine. 28 years and 15,000 miles later, it hasn't missed a beat. I did look at the plugs a couple of years ago out of curiosity and they still looked fine. Unless you are using you car as a daily driver and drive 60 miles to work, all of the kind of stuff is a waste of money and looking for trouble in my book. My old man was a traveling salesman back in the '50's. He would put 100K on a new Oldsmobile every two years, and I remember a tune-up being an annual affair. I do not remember one of his cars ever letting him down. Where did point ignitions get this bad rap?

[FlatheadTed]

I really agree with Tubman if you can get a good set of points set them up ,your good to go .A lot of the time its the related items that give the trouble, eg wiring ,A unbroken power supply from the battery to the points is needed,all joints Soldered .( No half assd crimped joints ) ,and a good earth to the starter otherwise you will suck the current thats needed to drive the coil .Ted

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by tubman

Where did point ignitions get this bad rap?

I can only think of a few reasons...reliability, less maintenance and better efficiency.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Mike B

I can only think of a few reasons...reliability, less maintenance and better efficiency.

I find it a it a bit odd that every time I see a thread on this subject, it invariably has a post or two on how to recover from failures of the electronic components and rewiring your points so you can get home.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by tubman

I find it a it a bit odd that every time I see a thread on this subject, it invariably has a post or two on how to recover from failures of the electronic components and rewiring your points so you can get home.

You're probably right...I mean all automotive manufacturers in the past 30 years or so, are probably wrong.

I'm sure a new points ignition system will be out shortly...

Wait for it...and the new super Carb that will put EFI to shame...

[Chris Nelson]

I have been running electronic ignitions for about 20+ years and have had zero problems. However, I also went to an alternator at the suggestion of some friends and I have to assume it is the reason why I have not had a failure of the module. I have heard that generators put out dirty power and that the electronic ignition is susceptible to dirty power and can cause blown modules. I'm sure Bubba has some views on this. If you look at the ignition system in your daily grocery getter, it has been running an electronic ignition for years with no problem and it has an alternator.

[RandyZ]

23 years, two different flatheads and have had zero problems.

But, I would rather have a back up plan than come home on a roll back.

[wga]

Also consider the number of threads in this forum regarding bad condensers...

[Richard in Florida]

Originally Posted by Rich/Alabama

I'm going to give the MSD a try.

Keep in mind that any MSD or similar box does NOT have to be under the hood where evil high temperatures can shorten its life.

I put my Crane box and a simple get-home HEI module under by '53 dash where it stays nice and cool and dry. The switches let me change over in a second. So far, I haven't needed to.