The Ford Barn

Fredb_ · 08-18-2013, 12:29 PM

I've making good progress so far on the 38 sedan, but have had a setback. I did not open the transmission while I had the car mostly apart because it shifted through all gears pretty smoothly. As soon as I could actually drive it I took it up the road and shifted through the gears with no trouble. I went ahead and put the floor together and carpeted the floor and firewall. We drove it probably 20-25 miles around town over the past week with no shifting issues, but as I was driving it to the DMV last week to license it I started having trouble getting it to shift into 2nd gear. It would go into 1st and third, but not completely into 2nd. I got it home and did some reading online. I suspect something has gone wacko with the shifting forks, but I am looking for ideas. Sitting in the garage with engine running at idle it will shift into reverse, 1st, and 3rd normally. If I shift into 2nd it feels like it almost is in gear, but as I release the clutch it pops out and grinds against the gears. The other gears work normally and do not pop out or grind when clutch is released. I have also changed the gear oil with the heaviest I could get off the shelf locally. (85w/145w gear). Any help appreciated.
Fred

Mac VP · 08-18-2013, 01:22 PM

If you have the early style (32-38) type synchronizer, I'd venture a guess that the thin brass ring on the 2nd gear side of the synchro has come loose. If so, trans needs to come out and completely apart to repair. Remove the shift tower with the shifter in neutral. If you can see the brass ring at all, it has come loose.

Fredb_ · 08-18-2013, 04:21 PM

I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Can you tell me if I have the "early" tranny? Where do I want to look for the brass ring you're talking about?

Fredb_ · 08-18-2013, 04:29 PM

Looking at the photos on your site, mine must be the 36-39 type with helical cut gears.

rotorwrench · 08-18-2013, 04:46 PM

It has the early synchro for sure. The later 39 & up types had brass blocker rings as an improvement.

Fredb_ · 08-18-2013, 07:01 PM

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I don't know anything about transmissions, but in the photo have I marked the 1st and second gears correctly? Is the brass ring part #7069 or #7071 from the diagram? I don't see it when inspecting the gear cluster, but then I don't really know what to look for either.

fordscript · 08-18-2013, 07:52 PM

You do have a 37, 38 and some 39 type gearbox, and this problem you describe is all to common on these. It seems that if everything is new they dont do it, and they will go for many thousands of miles perfectly, even to the point where they are quite worn. But the moment they are 'disturbed', this problem arises. I have had this a few times, pulled the dang thing apart, and really cant see what the cause is. It will improve with use, if you are prepared to put up with it meanwhile. I think it is a combination of wear in the synchro hub, the taper on 2nd gear, and the 2nd gear bush. there is very little about this in Ford service publications....the only reference they make is to replace the synchro assembly when you replace the gearbox bearings.

Charlie ny · 08-18-2013, 09:04 PM

Fred,
The item beneath the word "ass'y" is the syncro hub. The brass rings Mac
referred to are sweated or sweaged into either end of the hub.
If in fact the 2nd gear brass ring is spinning free and the trans has to be
pulled it would make absolute perfect sense to upgrade to the mid '39 up loose
syncro setup. Not a hard job if you have the parts...
Charlie ny

Fredb_ · 08-18-2013, 10:17 PM

Charlie, thanks for the info. I can't see any brass ring in the assembly. I will probably remove tranny to do the repair and would be interested in the upgrade to newer synchro if parts are available and don't require too much gold.

nospartsman · 08-18-2013, 11:20 PM

Will this help?

GEOFFNZ · 08-19-2013, 12:29 AM

Possibly the second gear locking/thrust washer has fractured.A sure way of losing second gear.Cheers.

Mac VP · 08-19-2013, 05:27 AM

I don't see the brass ring hanging out loose in your pics. I wonder if its simply loose on its side of the synchro hub (rather than fixed to the hub as it should be on the 32-38 type synchro). There should be no crunch on an ordinary shift into 2nd gear. I think you should get it apart to check it out. Consider getting a copy of my book for the repair.

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...trans-book.htm

Charlie ny · 08-19-2013, 05:53 AM

Fred,
Macs' book is THE best money you will ever invest. Mac has all the parts as
do I for the upgrade I mentioned.
Charlie ny
[email protected]

jimvette59 · 08-19-2013, 07:58 AM

Just for S&%*S and giggles what type oil did you put in the transmission ? Could that be a problem? I would try to wash it out and try a recommended oil for a thirties transmission. JMHO. .

JM 35 Sedan · 08-19-2013, 08:03 AM

Something looks unusual to me about the way that gear oil is heavily coated on some parts of the gear teeth but not on others. Exactly what type of gear oil did you use? I know you said 85w/145w in your first post, but I am wondering about other details like manufacturer, recommended use, etc.

Jack E/NJ · 08-19-2013, 08:14 AM

I do not like green oil in my tran. Sam I am.

Jack E/NJ

Fredb_ · 08-19-2013, 11:10 PM

The problem started before I changed the gear oil. I thought maybe new oil would help. I looked for something more designed for this period car but was not available locally. I used Valvoline High Performance 85W-145W gear oil. I have ordered Mac's manual and am ready to pull engine. Since I am now going to replace some parts in the tranny I will order some oil. Anybody got a link to someone that sells the correct stuff? Thanks for all the help and feedback it makes the project more interesting.

David J · 08-20-2013, 10:34 AM

This stuff should get it done for you . NAPA $16.99 @ gallon . Also I have a good supply of NOS gennie Ford syncros . If you need one $16 at your door { lower 48 } . If you need one PM me . Don't wanna get the hall monitors undies in a bunch .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredb_

The problem started before I changed the gear oil. I thought maybe new oil would help. I looked for something more designed for this period car but was not available locally. I used Valvoline High Performance 85W-145W gear oil. I have ordered Mac's manual and am ready to pull engine. Since I am now going to replace some parts in the tranny I will order some oil. Anybody got a link to someone that sells the correct stuff? Thanks for all the help and feedback it makes the project more interesting.

svm99 · 08-20-2013, 03:09 PM

Just a thought, have you inspected the shift tower for wear in the 1/4 pin which fits to the shifter under the threaded cap. If it is really worn the shift will not be very positive. If this helps it sure beats pulling the engine.
Good luck, Paul

Fredb_ · 08-20-2013, 05:19 PM

Paul,
I'll look at that, but would it affect all shifting or just 2nd?

08-18-2013, 12:29 PM	#1
Fredb_ Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Coos Bay, OR Posts: 640	38 transmission question I've making good progress so far on the 38 sedan, but have had a setback. I did not open the transmission while I had the car mostly apart because it shifted through all gears pretty smoothly. As soon as I could actually drive it I took it up the road and shifted through the gears with no trouble. I went ahead and put the floor together and carpeted the floor and firewall. We drove it probably 20-25 miles around town over the past week with no shifting issues, but as I was driving it to the DMV last week to license it I started having trouble getting it to shift into 2nd gear. It would go into 1st and third, but not completely into 2nd. I got it home and did some reading online. I suspect something has gone wacko with the shifting forks, but I am looking for ideas. Sitting in the garage with engine running at idle it will shift into reverse, 1st, and 3rd normally. If I shift into 2nd it feels like it almost is in gear, but as I release the clutch it pops out and grinds against the gears. The other gears work normally and do not pop out or grind when clutch is released. I have also changed the gear oil with the heaviest I could get off the shelf locally. (85w/145w gear). Any help appreciated. Fred

08-18-2013, 01:22 PM	#2
Mac VP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,361	Re: 38 transmission question If you have the early style (32-38) type synchronizer, I'd venture a guess that the thin brass ring on the 2nd gear side of the synchro has come loose. If so, trans needs to come out and completely apart to repair. Remove the shift tower with the shifter in neutral. If you can see the brass ring at all, it has come loose. __________________ VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio Office: 513-724-9486 www.vanpeltsales.com www.classictransmission.com

08-18-2013, 04:29 PM	#4
Fredb_ Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Coos Bay, OR Posts: 640	Re: 38 transmission question Looking at the photos on your site, mine must be the 36-39 type with helical cut gears.

08-18-2013, 04:46 PM	#5
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,436	Re: 38 transmission question It has the early synchro for sure. The later 39 & up types had brass blocker rings as an improvement.

08-18-2013, 09:04 PM	#8
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: 38 transmission question Fred, The item beneath the word "ass'y" is the syncro hub. The brass rings Mac referred to are sweated or sweaged into either end of the hub. If in fact the 2nd gear brass ring is spinning free and the trans has to be pulled it would make absolute perfect sense to upgrade to the mid '39 up loose syncro setup. Not a hard job if you have the parts... Charlie ny

08-18-2013, 07:52 PM	#7
fordscript Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oamaru, New Zealand Posts: 419	Re: 38 transmission question You do have a 37, 38 and some 39 type gearbox, and this problem you describe is all to common on these. It seems that if everything is new they dont do it, and they will go for many thousands of miles perfectly, even to the point where they are quite worn. But the moment they are 'disturbed', this problem arises. I have had this a few times, pulled the dang thing apart, and really cant see what the cause is. It will improve with use, if you are prepared to put up with it meanwhile. I think it is a combination of wear in the synchro hub, the taper on 2nd gear, and the 2nd gear bush. there is very little about this in Ford service publications....the only reference they make is to replace the synchro assembly when you replace the gearbox bearings.

08-18-2013, 10:17 PM	#9
Fredb_ Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Coos Bay, OR Posts: 640	Re: 38 transmission question Charlie, thanks for the info. I can't see any brass ring in the assembly. I will probably remove tranny to do the repair and would be interested in the upgrade to newer synchro if parts are available and don't require too much gold.

08-19-2013, 12:29 AM	#11
GEOFFNZ Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Oxford New Zealand Posts: 177	Re: 38 transmission question Possibly the second gear locking/thrust washer has fractured.A sure way of losing second gear.Cheers.

08-19-2013, 05:27 AM	#12
Mac VP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,361	Re: 38 transmission question I don't see the brass ring hanging out loose in your pics. I wonder if its simply loose on its side of the synchro hub (rather than fixed to the hub as it should be on the 32-38 type synchro). There should be no crunch on an ordinary shift into 2nd gear. I think you should get it apart to check it out. Consider getting a copy of my book for the repair. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...trans-book.htm __________________ VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio Office: 513-724-9486 www.vanpeltsales.com www.classictransmission.com

08-19-2013, 05:53 AM	#13
Charlie ny BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,019	Re: 38 transmission question Fred, Macs' book is THE best money you will ever invest. Mac has all the parts as do I for the upgrade I mentioned. Charlie ny [email protected]

08-19-2013, 07:58 AM	#14
jimvette59 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Perry OH Posts: 1,330	Re: 38 transmission question Just for S&%*S and giggles what type oil did you put in the transmission ? Could that be a problem? I would try to wash it out and try a recommended oil for a thirties transmission. JMHO. .

08-19-2013, 08:03 AM	#15
JM 35 Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland Posts: 10,858	Re: 38 transmission question Something looks unusual to me about the way that gear oil is heavily coated on some parts of the gear teeth but not on others. Exactly what type of gear oil did you use? I know you said 85w/145w in your first post, but I am wondering about other details like manufacturer, recommended use, etc. __________________ *John* *"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein*

08-19-2013, 08:14 AM	#16
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: 38 transmission question I do not like green oil in my tran. Sam I am. Jack E/NJ

08-19-2013, 11:10 PM	#17
Fredb_ Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Coos Bay, OR Posts: 640	Re: 38 transmission question The problem started before I changed the gear oil. I thought maybe new oil would help. I looked for something more designed for this period car but was not available locally. I used Valvoline High Performance 85W-145W gear oil. I have ordered Mac's manual and am ready to pull engine. Since I am now going to replace some parts in the tranny I will order some oil. Anybody got a link to someone that sells the correct stuff? Thanks for all the help and feedback it makes the project more interesting.

08-20-2013, 03:09 PM	#19
svm99 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Garlic Country of CA Posts: 537	Re: 38 transmission question Just a thought, have you inspected the shift tower for wear in the 1/4 pin which fits to the shifter under the threaded cap. If it is really worn the shift will not be very positive. If this helps it sure beats pulling the engine. Good luck, Paul

08-20-2013, 05:19 PM	#20
Fredb_ Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Coos Bay, OR Posts: 640	Re: 38 transmission question Paul, I'll look at that, but would it affect all shifting or just 2nd?