Seat belts, yeah or neigh?

[V8 Bob]

Kube, your restoration expertise is well known and respected, but your just wrong about seat belt installation. If you ever looked, you would never see belts bolted to any frame on any body-on-frame production US vehicle. They always go to the floor, and with enough re-enforcement (usually from a steel plate) to ensure the floor will contain the attachment.
I welded the heavy steel shoulder belt supports Juliano's supplies into the B pillars of my '40 coupe, and while it may not pass DOT passive restraint testing (that I am familiar with), it's sure a lot better than no shoulder restraint, and will at least slow body movement in the event of a serious crash.

[ford38v8]

Kube, I disagree on a couple points:

As elaborated by DD, the frame can move in one direction, the car body another. Instructions given by belt suppliers also specify floor installation, and hardware supplied (short bolts and fender washers) would also suggest floor is best.

As for installation of the shoulder harness to the B pillar being inadequate, I defy you to show that any such installation would be weaker than flesh and bone in an accident. In actual practice, a single shoulder harness has many times been shown to cause serious injury rather than to prevent injury. To suggest that the B pillar is weaker than a collar bone is not realistic at all.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

Kube, your restoration expertise is well known and respected, but your just wrong about seat belt installation. If you ever looked, you would never see belts bolted to any frame on any body-on-frame production US vehicle. They always go to the floor, and with enough re-enforcement (usually from a steel plate) to ensure the floor will contain the attachment.
I welded the heavy steel shoulder belt supports Juliano's supplies into the B pillars of my '40 coupe, and while it may not pass DOT passive restraint testing (that I am familiar with), it's sure a lot better than no shoulder restraint, and will at least slow body movement in the event of a serious crash.

You have made a valid point. I will agree with you in that IF a heavy and large enough reinforcement is welded to the floor pan, it should hold the belt (bolt) in place.
And, welding to the B pillar would certainly be more advantageous than bolting. Here though I may agree to disagree. The "B" pillars in these old cars are simply not designed to handle the stresses a frontal collision would induce.
I will agree that in a "fender bender" they would help "slow you down".
I tend to think you and I are on the same track. Perhaps a bit of differences in terminology but no doubt we both can appreciate safety and the absolute need for proper installation.
I would never claim that may way is the only way. Perhaps my message was lost ...

[Kube]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

Kube, I disagree on a couple points:

As elaborated by DD, the frame can move in one direction, the car body another. Instructions given by belt suppliers also specify floor installation, and hardware supplied (short bolts and fender washers) would also suggest floor is best.

As for installation of the shoulder harness to the B pillar being inadequate, I defy you to show that any such installation would be weaker than flesh and bone in an accident. In actual practice, a single shoulder harness has many times been shown to cause serious injury rather than to prevent injury. To suggest that the B pillar is weaker than a collar bone is not realistic at all.

Alan, once again, I will not claim that I have the only proper method of installing belts. There are no doubt at minimum a couple of good ways.
The point I was attempting to make was it is imperative that they be installed correctly. I have seen firsthand belts bolted directly to a floor pan with no reinforcement. In the accident you sight in which the body becomes dislodged from the frame, we MUST figure this is a SERIOUS collision and not a mere fender bender. In that type of collision, I can assure you belts, improperly installed will do little or nothing to avoid injury.
Your comparison of a collar bone being weaker than a B pillar is not a realistic comparison in the accident you have sited.
Did you realize that the accident I had sited (55 MPH against a stationary object) will in fact cause elbows, knees, etc. to be ejected from their respective sockets? The same collision I sited will also tear the engine from the frame and the differential as well.
Rest assured a belt simply bolted to a B pillar will tear out and travel at 55MPH WITH the passenger.
Once again, my point is yes, install the belts, but do it properly.

[oldford2]

Well, I was not going to weigh in on the thread, but... I have lap belts in our 46 and based on some tips in this thread I will explore shoulder belts also. Now, Kube's suggestion to attach to the frame with GRADE 8 bolts (no size mentioned) is crazy. He apparently doesn't know the shear strength of bolts. By the time any bolt would shear, your belly would be cut in half (shear strength of a 1/2" grade 8 bolt is 17,000 #). Lap belts would keep you in the car in case of a rollover and shoulder belts would keep your nose from ruining your steering wheel. Guys like Kube that don't use their cars as drivers get a little too technical and theoretical (sp.?). However, what if he was loading one of his 100 point cars on the trailer and it slipped off the ramp and rolled over? A lap belt would keep him in the car.
John

[bobH]

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100-point-cars dont have seatbelts or holes in the car to mount them

[34PKUP]

Originally Posted by bobH

100-point-cars dont have seatbelts or holes in the car to mount them

Seat belts are not meant to be installed in cars that spend most of their lives on a trailer or sitting in a garage.

[Ian NZ]

Originally Posted by The Hot Rod Grille

Lap belts in my '34 Coupe. That was the first project that I did when I got the car in 1999. I purchased them from Juliano's and have been very pleased with the look and quality of them. I installed the "old-style" roller retractors to keep the belts from falling on the runningboard when getting out of the car. I performed the eulogy at a "car buddies" funeral a couple of weeks ago after he was thrown from his car during a crash. I won't back out of the garage without my belt fastened!

Jim

I would be interested in knowing how you installed the lap belts with the " old style" roller retractors because it is would also stop the seat belts from damaging the paint work on the sill too.
I was a passenger in a modern car which had a bad accident the car was crushed right up to me on my side and I hit the windscreen and was knocked out and had other injuries and trapped in the car, and I can say seat belts saved me from more serious injuries.

[Marv]

From what i have read, lap belts alone can cause more damage than nothing at all some times. One article i read was about 4 kids in a Ford Escort if my memory serves me correctly and was driving approximately 35 MPH and crashed into another car that turned in front of them. The kids in the front were fine with no injuries wearing seat belts with shoulder belts. The kids in back had only lap belts and both were paralyzed from spinal injuries.

[RKS.PA]

2X on JWL. Have lap belts in the '39 Fordor front and back....no B pillar for attachment without messing it up.

Put a roll bar in the '27 T Street Rod and used it to mount the shoulder retractables.....this thing is open wheel....sort of like a go-kart for old guys...not much metal around me for protection!!!

[The Hot Rod Grille]

Originally Posted by Ian NZ

I would be interested in knowing how you installed the lap belts with the " old style" roller retractors because it is would also stop the seat belts from damaging the paint work on the sill too.
I was a passenger in a modern car which had a bad accident the car was crushed right up to me on my side and I hit the windscreen and was knocked out and had other injuries and trapped in the car, and I can say seat belts saved me from more serious injuries.

Look closely at the pic that I posted with my earlier post and you can see the retractors. They are used on the "outboard" belts to keep the belts from falling out the door when it is opened. The "inboard" belts are the ones that have the lift-latch buckels and are sitting on the seat cushion. The actual spring-loaded roller retractors are the same as were available in the early 1960's and easily slip over the belts to "roll them up". I can't remember where I got them, but possibly Juliano's or Speedway Motors. Yes, the retractors keep the belts from scratching the sill paintwork. The lapbelts were installed using the large oval plates included with the Juliano's kit. The plates are designed with rounded, rolled edges to prevent tearing through the floor in the event of an accident.

Jim

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by oldford2

Well, I was not going to weigh in on the thread, but... I have lap belts in our 46 and based on some tips in this thread I will explore shoulder belts also. Now, Kube's suggestion to attach to the frame with GRADE 8 bolts (no size mentioned) is crazy. He apparently doesn't know the shear strength of bolts. By the time any bolt would shear, your belly would be cut in half (shear strength of a 1/2" grade 8 bolt is 17,000 #). Lap belts would keep you in the car in case of a rollover and shoulder belts would keep your nose from ruining your steering wheel. Guys like Kube that don't use their cars as drivers get a little too technical and theoretical (sp.?). However, what if he was loading one of his 100 point cars on the trailer and it slipped off the ramp and rolled over? A lap belt would keep him in the car.
John

You ruined this thread.

Keep in mind that don't host drama on this forum.