PCV parts verification

[markdtn]

I want to add PCV to my stock '49 8BA engine. I am cheap and don't want to spend $50 for the Jameco kit. From what I understand, I need a Borg Warner PCV382 PCV valve and a Dorman 42054 grommet along with misc hose and fittings.

The PCV valve part number crossover is where I am having issues. If I do a search for Borg Warner PCV382 then O'Reillys gives me a part that crosses to a Toyota and it is straight and all plastic. On Ebay 2 come up that look more like I think they should, steel bottom and 90 degree plastic inlet. 1 for a 1.9L 1992 Escort/Lynx and 1 for a 2000ish 4.6 Mustang. The Fram cross-reference comes back as PCV343 which is for the Escort/Lynx. Is that the one I need?

[51 MERC-CT]

There a 100's of different ones. But you need one that was meant for an engine that falls in the 4.2-4.6L displacement range. 1.9L is not correct.

[moefuzz]

Hi, I used a pvc from a late 70's mustang ll which had the small version of Ford's 5 litre...
I'm not sure but I think it was a 4.2 litre V8 or something...

....Anyway, long story short, I grabbed the factory oil filler cap that twists/screws into the valve cover.

The factory ford oil filler cap on the valve cover has the grommet and PCV valve installed and then a rubber hose runs to the intake tee....

The grommet from the factory small block, whether it is a 302 or the smaller/downsized 4.2 litre V8 are identical while the actual PCV valve is dimensional identical and thus everything is swap-able and fits nice and tight
when retro fitting into your 49-54 Flathead...


...I wanna believe that any junkyard 70's or 80's Ford car/truck with 302 has the same oil filler cap on the passenger? valve cover which houses the grommet and PCV valve that you need and the price will be right.



Perhaps it's a little easier to comprehend if we have some pictures....


Hang Tight, pics of how I set my 8BA PCV system up
for under $10 will be posted here within a few minutes...



moe/Canada
....


.

.

[51504bat]

Photos of the set up I just installed on my 8ba.
pcv valve Standard part # V261 off a 231 cubic inch Buick V6
pcv grommet Dorman/Help # 42322
Also used an o ring in the grove in the grommet to make the fit even tighter. Number from the o ring kit at the parts store was 215.

[britman]

Here is a fordbarn pic of a system similar to that I installed on my 59A. Everything is hidden. After about 3K miles it seems to be working fine. No blow back--no fumes. The pcv valve was for a small displacement chevy. don't have the part number.

[markdtn]

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OK, thank you.

[outlaw]

britman, What manifold are you running this on? Do you have any close up pics of this setup? I assume the pcv valve just hangs under the manifold. I wonder about the fittings threaded into the bottom of manifold being able to pull a good vacuum. I have always thought that vacuum fittings were always plumbed in a horizontal position so that the air rushing across them would create the vacuum. Not saying that it doesn't work, just wondering. I like the setup, it's clean & hidden. Thank you. Bill

[SofaKing]

Originally Posted by outlaw

britman, What manifold are you running this on? Do you have any close up pics of this setup? I assume the pcv valve just hangs under the manifold. I wonder about the fittings threaded into the bottom of manifold being able to pull a good vacuum. I have always thought that vacuum fittings were always plumbed in a horizontal position so that the air rushing across them would create the vacuum. Not saying that it doesn't work, just wondering. I like the setup, it's clean & hidden. Thank you. Bill

Manifold vacuum is created by the Pistons drawing air as they descend.

I used an all metal pcv from a small Nissan that had pipe threads on the bottom. This allowed for a smaller hole in the manifold.
The carb spacer provided a vacuum source that did not draw through the carb.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by SofaKing

Manifold vacuum is created by the Pistons drawing air as they descend.

I used an all metal pcv from a small Nissan that had pipe threads on the bottom. This allowed for a smaller hole in the manifold.
The carb spacer provided a vacuum source that did not draw through the carb.

A solution that does'nt require any hardware inside of the intake.
I like it. Perhaps an adapter can be machined with a pipe threaded end that would accept a more suitable PCV valve.

[JSeery]

I see a lot of post of the vacuum side of PCV systems but not much on the air inlet side. If a proper filtered air inlet is not present you are going to be drawing dirty air into the crankcase.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I see a lot of post of the vacuum side of PCV systems but not much on the air inlet side. If a proper filtered air inlet is not present you are going to be drawing dirty air into the crankcase.

Not to worry. On an 8BA engine a Mopar PCV oil filler cap can be used and a tube run to a remote filter or as in my case to the carburetor air cleaner plenum chamber just like Ford, Mopar and others did it.

[SofaKing]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I see a lot of post of the vacuum side of PCV systems but not much on the air inlet side. If a proper filtered air inlet is not present you are going to be drawing dirty air into the crankcase.

I thought about this and agree but I don't know if it will make much difference. The engine is a 21 stud 1936. It had the oil pan road draft tube, brass screened oil stand scoop and the labrynthe rear crank seal. Unfiltered air could enter from potentially 3 places. The clutch housing would seem to me to be the source of the worst air because of the clutch dust and the rotating assembly potentially acting like a fan and pressurizing the clutch dust into the crankcase through the rear seal.

When I disassembled the engine it was full of sludge but that sludge did not show evidence of particulates upon visual inspection. This suggests that the crankcase does not ingest air from the clutch housing. Also, air movement inside the crankcase is not ingesting much from outside through the oil stand scoop or it would not have been full of sludge. On my 21 stud post-mod the airflow will not cross the entire engine from top to bottom as before because the pan draft tube is now plugged. The airflow is now from oil stand to front of the manifold.

Given that at a stop sign oil vapor exits the oil stand, I have to think there just isn't that much air entering the crankcase through the oil stand with the engine running. What is exiting is probably the result of the heat acting like a flue, air flow has to reverse through the draw of the road draft tube every time the car moves. In either of the two, road draft or pcv, I just don't think there is a great volume of air being moved through the engine to carry significant amounts of dirt.

The next guy to tear the engine down will get the results of my experiment.

[JSeery]

All of this is very true SofaKing, but you are referring to the system as it was designed. With a PCV system install now you are constantly moving outside air through the crankcase into the intake manifold. It is going to draw unfiltered air in through all of the openings you listed.

All most all of the sludge in an engine is from blowby, moisture and contaminates internal to the engine. Lots of short drives, starting and stopping the engine etc. without it reaching a high enough temperature to drive the moisture out and infrequent oil changes are the major sludge sources.

[outlaw]

Originally Posted by SofaKing

Manifold vacuum is created by the Pistons drawing air as they descend.

I used an all metal pcv from a small Nissan that had pipe threads on the bottom. This allowed for a smaller hole in the manifold.
The carb spacer provided a vacuum source that did not draw through the carb.

SofaKing, Thanks for the pic & explanation. I realize that the pistons create the initial vacuum source, but I was thinking that having the fittings plumbed straight into the bottom of the plenum or chambers wouldn't have as much of a positive effect as the air rushing downward directly across the face of the fitting. Plus how much fuel and/or contaminates ie: carbon, dirt, ect. might end up falling into the lines possibly upon start up (choking to start), flooding, or upon shut down. Maybe it doesn't matter & gets sucked back out when the motor fires up. Anyway the setup that you have looks clean also. I do like the hidden pcv under the manifold though, and have been plotting to do similar on the motor that I am building hence the interest in this post. Thank you. Bill

[SofaKing]

Originally Posted by outlaw

SofaKing, Thanks for the pic & explanation. I realize that the pistons create the initial vacuum source, but I was thinking that having the fittings plumbed straight into the bottom of the plenum or chambers wouldn't have as much of a positive effect as the air rushing downward directly across the face of the fitting. Plus how much fuel and/or contaminates ie: carbon, dirt, ect. might end up falling into the lines possibly upon start up (choking to start), flooding, or upon shut down. Maybe it doesn't matter & gets sucked back out when the motor fires up. Anyway the setup that you have looks clean also. I do like the hidden pcv under the manifold though, and have been plotting to do similar on the motor that I am building hence the interest in this post. Thank you. Bill

Outlaw- If I understand you correctly you are suggesting a ram air effect? I don't know. I prefer to think of the tube as physical access from a high pressure area (lifter valley) to a low pressure area (manifold vacuum) that is switched open and closed by the PVC valve. So air is pushed into the manifold by atmospheric pressure rather than sucked into the manifold. Pushed or sucked its moving just the same. JSeery is correct about more dust being drawn into the engine by the greater air movement of the pvc over the road draft tube I think. I once saw a thread where someone used a lawn mower filter over the oil stand inlet scoop, wish I could find it now, it was nicely done. Please post pics when you finish and what valve you used if it mounts horizontally.

[britman]

Outlaw. Unfortunately the pics of the details of my setup were lost in a cell phone problem. I used many ideas from the fordbarn and the jalopy journal. Mine is 39 bored out 221ci with an L 100 cam and the induction shown. I blocked the draft inlet on the oil pan and adapted a setup much like the pic you asked about. Had to tap both veins for the dual carb setup. It is true that my engine has the laybrinth rear main and some barners warned about drawing in contaminants---not sure of any problems at this point . I admit that I was winging it as a flathead newbie but it runs fine with no big problems so far. Thanks to the fordbarn/jalopy journal posters--these are great sites for info.

[britman]

sorry about that pic--I tried to crop it but....

[outlaw]

britman, Thank you. I will be attempting something similar on a 3x2 weiand manifold. Bill

[scooder]

A properly installed PCV on an 8BA would draw air through the oil fill cap, this has a wire mesh filter in it. So I think it will be fine.
Infact any properly installed PCV on a Flathead will/should draw in via its mesh filtered oil fill.
The odd ones out are the labyrinth still engines, these could pull UN filtered air through from the clutch housing, though the design of the labyrinth, the kinda disc spinning in a couple of deep groves would probably prevent a good amount of particulates getting to the crank case. But maybe the caught bits in the labyrinth would slowly fill up the grooves?
Martin.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by scooder

A properly installed PCV on an 8BA would draw air through the oil fill cap, this has a wire mesh filter in it. So I think it will be fine.
Infact any properly installed PCV on a Flathead will/should draw in via its mesh filtered oil fill.
Martin.

Been there, done that and then decided to do it the correct way by using a sealed Mopar PCV filler cap and connecting to a neutral air pressure point on the carb. air cleaner as both Mopar and Ford did.

[40cpe]

I saw a late 60's 302 a while back that had the hose from the oil filler cap connected to the air cleaner housing, before the air filter. This connection does not provide filtered air for the PVC because it is not taken from the carburetor side of the filter. Would this be the correct location, or would a location INSIDE the air filter be preferred?

[JSeery]

The ones I have seen had a dedicated filter the fit into a clip on the side of the filter housing.

[old guy rich]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Not to worry. On an 8BA engine a Mopar PCV oil filler cap can be used and a tube run to a remote filter or as in my case to the carburetor air cleaner plenum chamber just like Ford, Mopar and others did it.

51Merc, I like what you did, what year Mopar filler cap do you use? Rich

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by JSeery

The ones I have seen had a dedicated filter the fit into a clip on the side of the filter housing.

That makes sense. Thanks

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by old guy rich

51Merc, I like what you did, what year Mopar filler cap do you use? Rich

Mid 70's vintage.

[51 MERC-CT]

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Originally Posted by JSeery

The ones I have seen had a dedicated filter the fit into a clip on the side of the filter housing.

That is true. And if I were installing one on a different air filter than mine I would provide one. On the Ford filter it was nothing more than a flat piece of foam filter material that is slipped into a cage on the inside of the housing at the entrance point of the PCV hose.
In my case I am using the original '51 air cleaner. The point where the tube enters the lower plenum is filtered air.

[old guy rich]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Mid 70's vintage.

51Merc,Thanks.

[Bader]

Same as britmans,valve is 455 pontiac,works great

[51504bat]

Originally Posted by Bader

Same as britmans,valve is 455 pontiac,works great

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you tried to use a pcv valve from an engine with a similar size displacement? One from a 455 Poncho seems a tad bit big for a 239 flattie but maybe a hopped up one needs one from a larger displacement engine.

[outlaw]

Originally Posted by Bader

Same as britmans,valve is 455 pontiac,works great

I kind of would be worried that that valve would be sitting too low on the valley & start suckn oil instead of vapors.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Been there, done that and then decided to do it the correct way by using a sealed Mopar PCV filler cap and connecting to a neutral air pressure point on the carb. air cleaner as both Mopar and Ford did.

I'm sorry I don't get it,
I stated pulling in air via the mesh filtered oil fill cap, you say you decided to do it the correct way and pull from the air filter like Ford and mopar did. Later you show this air filter connection, this has the air being pulled from outside the filter! How is this unfiltered air source better than the mesh filter in the oil fill cap? Then it's stated that this outside the air filter connection used a small bit of foam in its factory installation. Again, bit of foam or a mesh filter, I'm going with the mesh filter, gotta be better unless I'm missing something here?
Martin.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by scooder

I'm sorry I don't get it,
I stated pulling in air via the mesh filtered oil fill cap, you say you decided to do it the correct way and pull from the air filter like Ford and mopar did. Later you show this air filter connection, this has the air being pulled from outside the filter! How is this unfiltered air source better than the mesh filter in the oil fill cap? Then it's stated that this outside the air filter connection used a small bit of foam in its factory installation. Again, bit of foam or a mesh filter, I'm going with the mesh filter, gotta be better unless I'm missing something here?
Martin.

If you don't mind the hint of residual blow-by vapors wafting out of the wire mesh oil filler/filter then you certainly can use it if you wish. But by doing so you don't have a true PCV system. A true system is a closed system. The system is not always sucking air out of the crankcase. At times the valve is closed and the vapors are forced back towards the wire mesh cap and into the atmosphere. By placing the intake hose inside of the air cleaner it allows residual vapors to be drawn into the carburetor.
If you are referring to the plenum location on the original '49-'51 Mercury air cleaner as being unfiltered then you obviously do not understand the anatomy of the filter assembly. The location is after the air filter.

[scooder]

I was referring to the stock location on the Ford and mopar that were mentioned, the ones with a bit of foam (often missing, so unfiltered air) that were fitted outside the air filter element. I didn't look properly at your pics, didn't make um bigger, and thunk the first pic was one of the later Ford or mopar filters, and second pic was a Merc one. If it was a paper element type later filter style, the marked hole would be outside the filter element. I do know how the stock Merc filter works. Just made the pics bigger, and felt like a putz for assuming the first pic. Was looking at them on my phone. Sorry about that.
As yours does pull from the filtered air then your golden, and one of the better PCV flathead systems I've seen. Nice work.
My "don't get it" was aimed at the outside the filter element style, which in my mind is just stupid, pulling in often unfiltered air through the crankcase.
Martin.

[5851a]

The early 60's Ford PCV system just used the valve in place of the road draft tube and continued to use the horse hair open oil fill tube cap. Later the cap was sealed on the bottom with a wire mesh inside and a hose going to the air cleaner. My opinion was they were not cleaning the fill cap at service or it became cheaper to put the filter inside the air cleaner. When they started using the heated air intake system a side benefit is the air going into the PCV was also heated and really cleaned up the crankcases. This is just an opinion. Also had a question, has anyone ever hooked a vacuum/pressure gauge to the crankcase and seen a result of PCV verses road draft?

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by 5851a

The early 60's Ford PCV system just used the valve in place of the road draft tube and continued to use the horse hair open oil fill tube cap. Later the cap was sealed on the bottom with a wire mesh inside and a hose going to the air cleaner. My opinion was they were not cleaning the fill cap at service or it became cheaper to put the filter inside the air cleaner. When they started using the heated air intake system a side benefit is the air going into the PCV was also heated and really cleaned up the crankcases. This is just an opinion. Also had a question, has anyone ever hooked a vacuum/pressure gauge to the crankcase and seen a result of PCV verses road draft?

Has anyone hooked up a vacuum gauge?
As a matter of fact, see this thread----

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113816

[5851a]

That's great, thanks for the info.