Narrow V8 Rear Axle

[jeepguy1948]

This is not my first thread on this topic but I have a bit more info now so I thought I would start fresh. My mockup is done and the combination of Model A axle with the Lincoln brakes, the 16” wires and the tires I am using is about 2” per side. Everything worked fine with the original mechanical brakes but the Lincoln brakes add 1.5” per side. A V8 axle is as wide or wider (depending on year) than a Model A axle so simply swapping a V8 axle won’t help. I believe but am not certain (maybe somebody here knows the answer) that the ‘40 style juice brakes add as much width as the Lincoln self energizing brakes do so even going with the ‘40 brakes won’t solve the problem either. I want a stronger axle than the Model A axle but I want to stick with the banjo style if I can so a V8 axle would be where to start. What I need (I believe) is somebody to supply shorter axle shafts, I could narrow a V8 housing myself. Ideas anybody?

[30Murray]

I have a 1934 rear axle on my AV8 with '39-42 style hydraulic brakes, 16" wires widened by 1 1/2" on the inside with 225/75R 16 tires and it is lowered a few inches as well. They fit perfectly within the rear fenders. I think you may be overly concerned. I don't think the axles themselves are any stronger than the Model A - the only difference appears to be the length, but the spider gear assembly has one additional gear. Vern Tardel has a good booklet on identifying and servicing the V8 axles.

[Bored&Stroked]

What width are you trying to achieve - backing plate mounting face to backing plate mounting face?

I don't know of anybody who can supply narrowed tapered axles (and I wouldn't invest in them anyway!).

Another approach would be to get rid of the tapered axles/hubs from the early Ford rear, weld on new modern bearing ends on the rear-end housing bells and run modern 28 spline 8-inch axles and later drum brakes.

The ring-gear needs to be bored to except the later side gears and the differential housing needs modified as well.

You can get modern axles in any width you want - with 5 1/2 x 5 bolt circles as well.

Also, this type of rear will be a LOT stronger than any V8 rear end with stock-style tapered axles (the ends). Talk to the new owners of HotRod works, they can supply you with the modified side-gears, can modify the ring gear and differential for the slide-in-axle side gears, etc.. They can also build you a complete rear end.

An important note is that to weld on new axle bearing ends, you need a big-ole alignment bar and 2 sets of "pucks" to pick up the outer bearing IDs and the two differential bearing locations. This is so the resulting bearing bores and differential bearings are all running on the same centerline - you shouldn't just weld the ends on and assume you can get them correctly oriented.

https://hotrodworks.com/

Note: You'll also be using later Ford drum brakes - which is an added bonus in my mind (lots cheaper than repop early Ford brakes).

[jeepguy1948]

I try and lay out all the information I can but things in I post get missed. I already have about 1,500 into Lincoln/Bendix Brakes. This in fact is the whole problem, those brakes add 1.5-2” per side, I was ok until I put them on. I have this mocked up right now and it’s pretty darn clear that it’s not going to work unless. I trade off travel or don’t lower it as I want to. Good info bored. Unfortunately there is absolutely zero information supplied with the Lincoln brakes to inform the prospective buyer that the brakes will add width. I painted them before mockup (lesson learned) so I can’t return them. I really wanted disc brakes but had to give up on them because they would add width and I knew I didn’t have room for it.

[jeepguy1948]

I think that I am going to give up on trying to keep the look of the banjo. There are newer axles readily available ( a 10 bolt from a S-10 is one of them) that need very little to modify to install. I think $1k total would do it. I’m not going to go bonkers to keep the banjo look.

[Bored&Stroked]

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If you already have a V8 rear, you might find that it isn't a huge expense to do the above mods. Also, they used to have housing ends that would take the original Ford or Lincoln brakes - and later axles. The look of a banjo is probably a lot better than an S-10. A better looking later rear would be an 8" Ford.

[alchemy]

Are you aware you can’t fit old Ford wires to modern brakes without a thick adapter? The wheel has an outer mounting flange that hits the drum of a modern brake. That’s why we use the 40-48 year drums and add the little inner support ring too. Those wheels are a mother….

[deuce lover]

Here are some measurements that might help.My buddy here is going thru the issue to mount 35 wire wheels on his 29 roadster.His current rear is a 8" Cougar at 60 " wide. With the Speedway adapters the wheels and tires are spread out to wide for the car,nearly 6 " on each side. Impossible to find a Maverick rear here in Europe so he is shortening his 8" rear and replacing the axles with new from Summit.Expensive conversion.

[deuce lover]

....

[Bored&Stroked]

Another thing to think about is mounting the rear - what springs, what cross-member, what control arms, torque-tube or open-drive, shocks, panhard bar, etc..

If you're going to run a transverse spring and your frame is setup for it, then an early V8 rear would make a lot of sense. Think through the entire package before heading down any specific direction.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Here are some measurements that might help.My buddy here is going thru the issue to mount 35 wire wheels on his 29 roadster.His current rear is a 8" Cougar at 60 " wide. With the Speedway adapters the wheels and tires are spread out to wide for the car,nearly 6 " on each side. Impossible to find a Maverick rear here in Europe so he is shortening his 8" rear and replacing the axles with new from Summit.Expensive conversion.

[rotorwrench]

The Hot Rod Works advertised axle conversions for early Ford housings. Just about anything is possible if one is willing to throw enough funds at it and do all the work. The M/T Lincoln brakes could use the Ford 12" drums. The Lincoln ones were a bit beefier but that's about it.

[BlueNotes]

Originally Posted by jeepguy1948

I try and lay out all the information I can but things in I post get missed. I already have about 1,500 into Lincoln/Bendix Brakes. This in fact is the whole problem, those brakes add 1.5-2” per side, I was ok until I put them on. I have this mocked up right now and it’s pretty darn clear that it’s not going to work unless. I trade off travel or don’t lower it as I want to. Good info bored. Unfortunately there is absolutely zero information supplied with the Lincoln brakes to inform the prospective buyer that the brakes will add width. I painted them before mockup (lesson learned) so I can’t return them. I really wanted disc brakes but had to give up on them because they would add width and I knew I didn’t have room for it.

The added width caused by your Lincoln/Bendix hubs and brake drums with 2" shoes from Boling Brothers is obviously the main reason for not getting the wheels tucked under the fenders.

Have you considered, or tried, to use the Ford 1935 rear drums together with the Boling B "Lincoln" backing plates on your model A axle? The width of the '35 drums is 3.50" (vs 3.75" Ford 1940-48 rear drums), and they are the last year for use with wire wheels. However, you have to replace the 2" shoes with 1.75" shoes and use 1928-35 wheel bearings, but everything else in the Boling B "Lincoln" backing plate kit should be okay to use.

[jeepguy1948]

Even before the Lincoln brakes I was 1/2-3/4” wide so the extra 1 1/2” that the Lincoln’s add definitely pushes it into the “no-can-do” department. Something that will shave anything less than 2” is not really worth doing.

For the record, the ‘40 brakes would have been nearly as bad.

I already have the Lincoln brakes, all painted up so they can’t be returned, very, very, expensive so It’s going to take a really really good reason not to use them.

[jeepguy1948]

PS, I have a guy looking for a Maverick axle but even that won’t work unless I can get axles for it with the 5x5.5 pattern because the width added by the adapters would push the total width back into the no can do range. This car looks totally stock except for the ‘35 wire wheels and I want to do all I can to keep it that way so a Banjo axle makes sense.

[Bored&Stroked]

Best solution: Banjo axle, updated with late 28 spline axles with a 5 x 5 1/2 bolt pattern, new axle bearing ends for using the Lincoln backing plates and brakes, modified differential and ring gear for using the special 28 spline side-gears from HRW. Easiest to install in the car by far.

It all fits, it looks original, axles are much stronger . . . Jed's a Millionaire. LOL

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Just did this (or should I say my buddy who is a hit rodder and has a machine shop. He also just did his 35 5-window which was great because I am using a 36 axle) to my avatar with 9” axles and mid 60s Ford truck brakes. Looks great and works like a charm - mine and his!

[itslow]

Mock up your Model A rear axle with the hubs used for your Lincoln (Bendix) brakes. Put under the car and install wheels. Post photos.

The Boling Lincoln style drums use '40 Ford style hubs. They will not be wider than whatever the '40 Ford (Lockheed) style brakes were/are on the Model A axle.

[alchemy]

He has about a dozen threads spread over the Fordbarn and the HAMB asking how to solve this “problem”, but refuses to post a pic to show how bad it really is. I can’t fathom how guys have been putting 40 brakes onto A’s for a lifetime, and this is the first time anyone has ever found an issue. I’ll just think it’s a non-issue til he shows a pic.

Edit: I actually find it kinda humorous now when I see a new thread from him, banging his head on the invisible wall. But I’m a jerk like that.

[rotorwrench]

Most of them use the A axle and wheels so they can have the juice brake but stock look.

I wonder how many quick change axles have been narrowed for custom race applications. Nothing is new under the sun.

[jeepguy1948]

I have a problem to deal with and I am simply seeking help from some more experienced than me. I fail to understand why it’s a sin to ask for help, it should not matter to you what MY car looks like, it’s my car, if I feel I need a narrower axle than I need a narrower axle, the why is not your concern. I want what I want and it’s my car, end of story, help or don’t help. To those who have made suggestions and offered some solutions I thank you. Alchemy, I agree with your last sentence.

[itslow]

Originally Posted by jeepguy1948

I have a problem to deal with and I am simply seeking help from some more experienced than me. I fail to understand why it’s a sin to ask for help, it should not matter to you what MY car looks like, it’s my car, if I feel I need a narrower axle than I need a narrower axle, the why is not your concern. I want what I want and it’s my car, end of story, help or don’t help. To those who have made suggestions and offered some solutions I thank you. Alchemy, I agree with your last sentence.

We're just confused at how they stick out really wide on your car but haven't on cars built in decades past.

A photo would really help to illustrate the issue.

[jeepguy1948]

Here is the best answer I have: There have been plenty of people disappointed about the width the brakes add but most, if not all, have apparently chosen to live with it. If using original 21” or 19” wheels the brakes definitely create an odd look but no clearance issues. When using 16” wheels the clearance get’s really tight but can be lived with by most. I am apparently using a wider tire and I am also trying to lower the car as much as possible but still have decent suspension travel hoping to have a decent ride. I think that a great many messing around with old cars are the same as me, very detail oriented. Even the small details matter (a lot). I had the fit I wanted with the stock A axle so it stands to reason that adding 1.5” on each side is going to cause a problem. Options are (1) raise the rear spring and limit the travel and live with the look (pure 1970’s) (nope, not gonna do it). (2) abandon the wire wheels and use a wheel with more offset (nope, not gonna happen). (3) change tires (nope, not gonna happen). I want the look that I want (and that I had actually) and in the end that’s it, there is no better explanation. I call this a problem because I had the fit I wanted and after installing the brakes I don’t and I am not willing to compromise. Maybe people could accept my thinking better if I just quit saying a problem and just state what it is I want to accomplish. I suppose that I am on a forum not oriented to hot rods and customs but even so I would think that for most people it is understood that you are building a car to suit your own taste. Unless you are building the car to sell then your own vision is all that matters. I cannot understand the number of commments that simply state that I don’t have a problem. To those I can only say that I want the look I want and I don’t have it anymore. I should not have to argue my point, isn’t the fact that I want it good enough? Do I need to prove it with pictures (I can’t right now because of recent surgery but I’m sure the clearance issue would not show up very well because it’s subtle and there are many that would still say it’s ok). A photo would not help at all because why should I have to prove my point? I want want I want because it’s my car and I want it. Why, when I get tired of having to explain over and over what I want and justify my wanting it, then I’m considered a turd? I just do not understand what is going on here. Would you like to post pictures of your car so that we all can find fault with it (keep in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder)? Does anybody at all have the right to tell me what is and is not a problem on my car? Does anybody have the right to tell me what my car should look like? Simply put, if I ask you for your opinion about how my car looks then absolutely you can and should give it but if I’m not asking you for it than it’s none of your business. Is it not sufficient for me to say I want to get from point A to point B and I would appreciate help figuring out the best way to accomplish it? I’m not putting my car and my wife in the same category but as a point of reference would you like to post pictures of your wife and ask our opinion of how she looks and what is and isn’t wrong (maybe you like women with 3 heads, it’s none of my business). I am told that “we just need more and more info and more and more pictures because we must have them to “help” you. Respectfully, no, you don’t. Every single person on here knows what the rear suspension on a Model A looks like and that is all that is all you need to know. What would be the best way to narrow the stock axle width? Can somebody narrow a Model A axle (at a reasonable cost)? Is an axle swap needed to accomplish the desired goal? The question is not should I want it or need it, that is for me to decide. I really appreciate the comments and advice that would help me achieve my goal, I really do, however a number of posters are not trying to help at all.

[Bored&Stroked]

We're on the same page . . . and I hope my recommendations of how to effectively modify a V8 style rear for width, added strength and the ability to use the brakes you have works for you.

Best of luck!

[jeepguy1948]

Sorry for the rant, a lot of pain this morning. FWIW I only chose a V8 axle because if I have to go to the trouble of altering an axle it may as well be a stronger V8 axle. I have done a lot of research and so far have not found a source for a shorter axle shaft (if anybody knows of one, please share). Giving up on narrowing a Banjo axle the next logical choice (in my opinion) is a narrowed Ford 8” with no bolts showing as would be the case with a GM 10 bolt for example. If anyone knows of another alternative I’m all ears please share (really, I mean it LoL). Back to the 8”, axles in any length and with a 5 x 5.5 pattern are available at a fairly reasonable cost so I don’t have to worry about the axle shafts just the housing and I think I could use those $$$ brakes on it if I measured right. FWIW all of the comments about an 8” would apply to a 9” as well but a 9” is heavier and I need the smaller pumpkin to squeeze under the cross bar. Again, sorry for the rant.

[Andy]

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I have a Maverick in my car. It has the 1 in adapters. The total width is 58 in. The wheels fit over the drums. you would need the 3/16 rings to fit in the wheels for support

[itslow]

Originally Posted by jeepguy1948

...I suppose that I am on a forum not oriented to hot rods and customs but even so I would think that for most people it is understood that you are building a car to suit your own taste...

You've asked this same question on the HAMB, though, which is a site dedicated to traditional hot rods.

You're getting gruff because you aren't illustrating your purported issue. Illustrate the situation and people will be better able to understand it. Why are people having a tough time understanding the issue? Because folks have installed hydraulic brakes on the Model A for decades without having their wheels pushed out to the edges of the fenders.

We're trying to figure out why now in 2024 (and verify with our eyes) that things suddenly don't fit anymore.



All that said...

To accomplish what you want with a banjo and these brakes, you will need to ditch the Model A spring - or have a custom one made - because narrowing the axle will require the spring perches be moved inward, which will then be too narrow for the stock spring. Using a spring behind the axle with a will require you to extend the frame and fabricate a different rear crossmember or move the stock one rearward. You could convert to coil-overs and retain the original crossmember (but there goes the traditional look).

If you stay with the Model A banjo you'll also have to modify the radius rods since their mounting width is now different.

If you go to a V8-era banjo, you'll have to shorten its torque tube and driveshaft. Depending upon the year used, you may also need to modify its radius rods since their width would now be narrower.

Narrowing any banjo will require re-machining the Ford axles, which may be labor that's difficult to source since the end you'd be modifying will require re-tapering, a new keyway, and re-hardening. You will not find any aftermarket axles of this type. Further converting it to the modern slide-in axles adds even more expense.


So, in summary here are your options:

1) Spend a *ton* of money to keep the Lincoln brakes and modify a banjo.
2) Spend probably not quite as much to source an 8" use its original brakes and hope it's width is appropriate.
3) Spend more money than #2 and narrow an 8" to fit.
4) Search for some other alternative axle from a different application/make.
5) Do what people have been doing since the '30s, follow the "formula", and use what FoMoCo has provided to us.

How much money is this worth to you?

[rotorwrench]

Itslow has a point. For spring over axle a person would have to use a narrow rear spring than fits over the mid section (unobtanium). Extend the frame 7.5" to include a crossmember for behind axle spring support. Use a narrowed 35 or 36 rear axle to get the spring hangers on the radius rods so the axle bells can be shortened. Do a Hot Rod Works axle and bearing conversion with custom splined axles and the splined side gears for the differential carrier. While your at it, find a quick change unit center section for that hot rod look. Use a shortened tubular drive shaft with the front spline stub from a 1935 drive shaft. Shorten the torque tube to match the drive shaft.

This type of stuff has been done before but the HAMB is more friendly for such things to a point. Whoever did it first didn't have the HAMB to ask questions to. They just dug through the local salvage yards and found stuff that would work. A 1990 thru 1992 Ford Ranger rear axle is as narrow as a old Mavrick/Comet set up. Get custom axles made and find a way to connect it all in.

If the problem is with the wheels as the root cause then get some custom back spaced wheels. The old aftermarket Ford style Kelsey Hayes wheels were laced and not welded. A lace type wheel has a lot more possibilities than a welded spoke wheel.